the list (of criminals) is revealed

[botn]

Originally Posted by h2oya311

This thread is almost on page 2. That simply cannot happen. BUMP!

This needs to stay at the forefront of everyone's attention for at least a month! The original post was made in late January.

Or at least until people like Kenny Goldin, JC Clarke, Dave Forman, Pete Calderone and others who are members here or represent advertisers make a post explaining the inclusion of their names on the list.

[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by botn

Or at least until people like Kenny Goldin, JC Clarke, Dave Forman, Pete Calderone and others who are members here or represent advertisers make a post explaining the inclusion of their names on the list.

Or everybody here just agrees not to do business with those who aren't willing to justify their actions ...

[Shoebox]

Originally Posted by jefferyepayne

Or everybody here just agrees not to do business with those who aren't willing to justify their actions ...

It doesn't seem like that is occurring in the case of Goldin Auctions.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Shoebox

It doesn't seem like that is occurring in the case of Goldin Auctions.

'Stuff' trumps morals.

As I stated earlier in this thread (and other threads too), I refuse to buy from Probstein because he allows shilling in his auctions. If everybody took that stance, it would drive these people out of business. But I don't see that happening. Funny, but I bet some of those that complain about shilling the most will still continue to do business with these folks.

[brob28]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

'Stuff' trumps morals.

As I stated earlier in this thread (and other threads too), I refuse to buy from Probstein because he allows shilling in his auctions. If everybody took that stance, it would drive these people out of business. But I don't see that happening. Funny, but I bet some of those that complain about shilling the most will still continue to do business with these folks.

Sadly, I'm sure you're right David.

[vintagetoppsguy]

We should have a thread with a commitment not to do business with those whose names are associated with shill bidding, and by posting your name in the thread, you are agreeing to that. I wonder how many people would post their name (basically 'signing' the agreement) and commit to that?

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

We should have a thread with a commitment not to do business with those whose names are associated with shill bidding, and by posting your name in the thread, you are agreeing to that. I wonder how many people would post their name (basically 'signing' the agreement) and commit to that?

Not many. Stuff trumps all has always been the mantra of this hobby. You might have a better shot at getting people to not to consign with those associated with the list. There are plenty of really good auction houses in the hobby to consign your stuff to.

[mechanicalman]

Refusing to buy or to bid from these dudes, while it might seem morally sound, might have unintended consequences. If folks thought that other buyers are holding out, then the potential for lower prices might actually create more interest in these auctions. The real pain would be refusing to consign to these guys. I would sign up for that list.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

We should have a thread with a commitment not to do business with those whose names are associated with shill bidding, and by posting your name in the thread, you are agreeing to that. I wonder how many people would post their name (basically 'signing' the agreement) and commit to that?

Might be as short as the list of folks who came on to explain why their name was on the original list. It's been this way for years, people complain but at the end of the day the transgressions aren't enough for most to do without the cardboard crack. That's why not many feel compelled to explain themselves, why would they when at the end of the day to many it doesn't matter. You get what you are willing to put up with.

[WindyCityGameUsed]

Originally Posted by botn

Or at least until people like Kenny Goldin, JC Clarke, Dave Forman, Pete Calderone and others who are members here or represent advertisers make a post explaining the inclusion of their names on the list.

IMO no public admittance of wrong doing/associated guilt will ever be forth coming from any individual named on the list who derives their living from what we call a hobby but is strictly business for them.

I can't imagine a scenario at this point where these individuals are going to volunteer of their own accord to go on record with past transgressions so their statements can be used against them in a court of law down the road when their time/day comes.

It's a sick & twisted business that we support that is 90% devoid of any morals, conscience and integrity.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by WindyCityGameUsed

...
It's a sick & twisted business that we support that is 90% devoid of any morals, conscience and integrity.

It is not 90%, not even close. I'm sickened by the shilling epidemic as much as every other collector and moral dealer out there, but to say that evil makes up 90% of the hobby is ridiculous. I believe there is a much higher percentage of good than evil.

[SMPEP]

Evil will always triumph over good ... because good is dumb

[Leon]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

Evil will always triumph over good ... because good is dumb

Personally I think you have that backwards.

[gnaz01]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

Evil will always triumph over good ... because good is dumb

Really??????

[mickeymao34]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

Evil will always triumph over good ... because good is dumb

people do whatever people do Evil or Good. One can only account for oneself and family.

[arcadekrazy]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

Evil will always triumph over good ... because good is dumb

Hahaha. Spaceballs!

[begsu1013]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

Evil will always triumph over good ... because good is dumb

who made that man a gunner?

[drcy]

My saying is "Honest people are honest." Why are they honest? Because they are honest.

I've volunteered at a non-profit playhouse and they have their change (just nickels, quarters and dimes-- nothing much, it's just a little non-profit) in an unlocked desk drawer. An officer worker joked that I could take money and no one would notice. I said "I've known the money's been in there for years, and the thought of taking a nickel hasn't even crossed my mind. It's not that I chose not to steal but the very thought of stealing didn't even enter my mind." She said, "That's because you're honest."

I think the majority of people have no interest or desire in cheating others. They often also are aware of the concept of 'repeat customers.

On the flip side are dishonest scammers who believe everyone in the world thinks dishonestly like them, and usually justify their actions this way.

Then there are the great mass of collectors who fall under enablers, crowd followers and wishful thinkers. If you complain about shilling and fakers, then buy "stuff" from an auction house you know shills and fakes, you are an enabler and a part of the problem. And if are are high grade card investor who glosses over that Mastro said most high grade graded cards have been altered and that the auction house promoted that he could "prep" your raw cards for grading, you're a wishful thinker and probably home there isn't an alterations statistical report for the FBI to someday uncover and publicize. The majority has the control over how things are done, but they chose not to collectively their collective power-- of course, trying to harness that power would be like trying to heard cats.

If collectors want to really exercise their power, they would say they won't bid and buy with dishonest auction houses, and they won't buy stuff that came from the auction houses. If an eBay seller buys stuff from a dishonest auction house then puts it on ebay, you won't buy it then either. That would put the sources in a bind.

But, of course, business will likely go on as usual, because the "silent majority" won't do anything. No doubt a plethora of the complainers in this elongated thread have already placed their bids with the questioned auction houses, and no doubt the bids for high grade graded cards will go higher and higher even as the cards get shorter and shorter and the grading/resubmission/registry game gets stupider and stupider.

The high grade side of the hobby is why I love all those collectors on limited budgets who collect beaters. I always consider them the real collectors. My mom would likely say about a guy paying six figures for a PSA 1964 Topps Roberto Clemente to show off on the PSA registry, "He's probably trying to make up for his little weiner."

When you boil it down and realize that the hobby is dealing in cardboard kid's collectables, a lot of the stuff that goes on is just stupid and silly. Worthy of a Spinal Tap-esque satire. Just think what people outside the hobby would think. That someone makes his living secretly trimming and pressing baseball card's in his basement or resubmitting and resubmitting a baseball card until he gets the right number on a label makes you say "This is what you're doing with your life? Some people aspire to write the Great American Novel." I don't care how much money he makes doing it, it's still stupid.

Though I'm not at all a religious man, my other response explaining why I don't do certain things is "I want to go to Heaven." Yes, as a non-religious person, I roll my eyes when well known scammers wear their religion on their sleeves and bring a Priest to court while simultaneously claiming they did nothing unethical or immoral. Makes me want to ask them "What exactly are the tenants of your religion? Maybe I misheard."

[Sophiedog]

Originally Posted by drcy

My saying is "Honest people are honest." Why are they honest? Because they are honest.

I've volunteered at a non-profit playhouse and they have their change (just nickels, quarters and dimes-- nothing much, it's just a little non-profit) in an unlocked desk drawer. An officer worker joked that I could take money and no one would notice. I said "I've known the money's been in there for years, and the thought of taking a nickel hasn't even crossed my mind. It's not that I chose not to steal but the very thought of stealing didn't even enter my mind." She said, "That's because you're honest."

I think the majority of people have no interest or desire in cheating others. They often also are aware of the concept of 'repeat customers.

On the flip side are dishonest scammers who believe everyone in the world thinks dishonestly like them, and usually justify their actions this way.

Then there are the great mass of collectors who fall under enablers, crowd followers and wishful thinkers. If you complain about shilling and fakers, then buy "stuff" from an auction house you know shills and fakes, you are an enabler and a part of the problem. And if are are high grade card investor who glosses over that Mastro said most high grade graded cards have been altered and that the auction house promoted that he could "prep" your raw cards for grading, you're a wishful thinker and probably home there isn't an alterations statistical report for the FBI to someday uncover and publicize. The majority has the control over how things are done, but they chose not to collectively their collective power-- of course, trying to harness that power would be like trying to heard cats.

If collectors want to really exercise their power, they would say they won't bid and buy with dishonest auction houses, and they won't buy stuff that came from the auction houses. If an eBay seller buys stuff from a dishonest auction house then puts it on ebay, you won't buy it then either. That would put the sources in a bind.

But, of course, business will likely go on as usual, because the "silent majority" won't do anything. No doubt a plethora of the complainers in this elongated thread have already placed their bids with the questioned auction houses, and no doubt the bids for high grade graded cards will go higher and higher even as the cards get shorter and shorter and the grading/resubmission/registry game gets stupider and stupider.

The high grade side of the hobby is why I love all those collectors on limited budgets who collect beaters. I always consider them the real collectors. My mom would likely say about a guy paying six figures for a PSA 1964 Topps Roberto Clemente to show off on the PSA registry, "He's probably trying to make up for his little weiner."

When you boil it down and realize that the hobby is dealing in cardboard kid's collectables, a lot of the stuff that goes on is just stupid and silly. Worthy of a Spinal Tap-esque satire. Just think what people outside the hobby would think. That someone makes his living secretly trimming and pressing baseball card's in his basement or resubmitting and resubmitting a baseball card until he gets the right number on a label makes you say "This is what you're doing with your life? Some people aspire to write the Great American Novel." I don't care how much money he makes doing it, it's still stupid.

Though I'm not at all a religious man, my other response explaining why I don't do certain things is "I want to go to Heaven." Yes, as a non-religious person, I roll my eyes when well known scammers wear their religion on their sleeves and bring a Priest to court while simultaneously claiming they did nothing unethical or immoral. Makes me want to ask them "What exactly are the tenants of your religion? Maybe I misheard."

Excellent Post!!!!!

[h2oya311]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

Evil will always triumph over good ... because good is dumb

Awesome quote from an awesome movie! I can't believe people actually jumped down your throat for this one! I thought this movie and quote were part of every guy's DNA (especially for those that collect cardboard). I choked on my lunch when I read your post and then choked some more when I saw some guys on here that didn't get it. Shocking!

[mickeymao34]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

It is not 90%, not even close. I'm sickened by the shilling epidemic as much as every other collector and moral dealer out there, but to say the evil make up 90% of the hobby is ridiculous. I believe there is a much higher percentage of good than evil.

I wouldn't say 90% in Card collecting hobby but I would agree with Ron in the Game used Market for sure. Today's standard seem to be Not that if it is worn an authentic, rather the perception that it is worn. Cards are hardly faked, maybe altered but you know it is what it is. But nothing worse than spending thousands on a game used item with a question mark.