Morris & Trammell Elected to HOF

profholt82 · #1 12-11-2017, 09:19 AM

To the guys knocking Morris' numbers, his post season performance (World Series in particular) performances have to be taken into account to truly appreciate what he accomplished. Those 3 rings with 3 different clubs don't lie. And his 10 inning game 7 shutout against the Braves is absolutely legendary. There are pitchers in the Hall who accomplished less. I understand the induction.

Peter_Spaeth · #2 12-11-2017, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by profholt82

To the guys knocking Morris' numbers, his post season performance (World Series in particular) performances have to be taken into account to truly appreciate what he accomplished. Those 3 rings with 3 different clubs don't lie. And his 10 inning game 7 shutout against the Braves is absolutely legendary. There are pitchers in the Hall who accomplished less. I understand the induction.

His post season ERA was 3.80. His contribution to the third ring was 0-2 in the WS with an ERA of 8.44.

abothebear · #3 12-11-2017, 10:35 AM

I tend to think the stretch from the late 60s to the early 90s is the most difficult to judge. The mound was lower, the players were baby-boomers, the culture had changed, lots of new stadiums and expansion, games were on TV. These things made that era different from the previous era. And at the end of it, the steroid era was ramping up and then the strike season really made it difficult to recognize the dominant players of that time, especially for those players whose careers essentially ended around the strike. We understood baseball differently in the 90s because of those two things and how they worked together. The 70s and 80s players just don't match up in our minds to the players in the era before them or after.

I followed the Tigers during that time. And Morris was always the ace. If he never played for the Twins or Blue Jays he would still, in my mind, be THE pitcher of that decade (non-nolan ryan division). The Twins and Blue Jays years allowed him to shine brightly on the post-season stage again. Does that mean I think he should be a HOFer? I don't know. Given the era, and when he started and how he finished, it feels right to me that he made it. I think there are others from that time that would also be excellent representatives of the era that are not in.

packs · #4 12-11-2017, 10:48 AM

As much as everyone talks about Morris being a great pitcher in his time he only finished in the top 3 for Cy Young Voting twice and never won during an 18 year career. That doesn't sound typical for a guy who was the best pitcher of the 80s or whatever. Also seems strange that for a guy everyone hails for pitching complete games, he only led the league once. His peak numbers are nowhere near the HOF standard either.

btcarfagno · #5 12-11-2017, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by profholt82

To the guys knocking Morris' numbers, his post season performance (World Series in particular) performances have to be taken into account to truly appreciate what he accomplished. Those 3 rings with 3 different clubs don't lie. And his 10 inning game 7 shutout against the Braves is absolutely legendary. There are pitchers in the Hall who accomplished less. I understand the induction.

David Wells won 2 World Series. 10-5 post season record. 3.17 post season ERA. Pitched a perfect game in Yankee Stadium. 1998 ALCS MVP. morris had three very good post season series and three terrible ones. The year after his 1991 breathtaking game seven performance, he was lit up like a Christmas tree in both the post season series he pitched in. Wells was overall the better postseason pitcher. And he was Morris' equal during the regular season.

SAllen2556 · #6 12-11-2017, 10:10 AM

According to Reggie Jackson on whether Bert Blyleven should have been elected into the Hall of Fame: �No. No, no, no, no. Blyleven wasn�t even the dominant pitcher of his era, it was Jack Morris.�

Good enough for me. I think.

Aquarian Sports Cards · #7 12-11-2017, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAllen2556

According to Reggie Jackson on whether Bert Blyleven should have been elected into the Hall of Fame: �No. No, no, no, no. Blyleven wasn�t even the dominant pitcher of his era, it was Jack Morris.�

Good enough for me. I think.

One problem with that. Reggie's an idiot...

Hell old man version of Nolan Ryan would get my vote for dominant long before Morris.

Morris's career numbers match up pretty well with guys like Denny Martinez, Orel Hershiser, and Fernando Valenzuela, who all had more dominant stretches than Morris's best.

rats60 · #8 12-11-2017, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

One problem with that. Reggie's an idiot...

Hell old man version of Nolan Ryan would get my vote for dominant long before Morris.

Morris's career numbers match up pretty well with guys like Denny Martinez, Orel Hershiser, and Fernando Valenzuela, who all had more dominant stretches than Morris's best.

In 1979 when the Pirates were down 3-1, did Chuck Tanner give the ball to Blyleven with the season on the line? No, he sent him to the bullpen. Why? Chuck Tanner said Blyleven was a selfish player who cared about personal stats rather than team wins. In 1980 Blyleven threw a temper tantrum and quit the team after being pulled after giving up 4 runs in 5.2 innings. The Pirates were in 1st place at the time and ended up not making the playoffs. Blyleven was a distraction for the rest of the season, demanding a trade. The Pirates did after the season, for Gary Alexander, Victor Cruz, Bob Owchinko and Rafael Vasquez. Who? Lol. A Hofer? in his prime traded for garbage.

In 1991 with the season on the line, Tom Kelly gave the ball to Jack Morris. He pitched 10 shutout innings and the Twins won a championship. To actual baseball players, having your teammate's back is more important than personal stats. Reggie Jackson was about winning championships. To that end Morris is more deserving than Blyleven. It is the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Stats.

Aquarian Sports Cards · #9 12-11-2017, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rats60

In 1979 when the Pirates were down 3-1, did Chuck Tanner give the ball to Blyleven with the season on the line? No, he sent him to the bullpen. Why? Chuck Tanner said Blyleven was a selfish player who cared about personal stats rather than team wins. In 1980 Blyleven threw a temper tantrum and quit the team after being pulled after giving up 4 runs in 5.2 innings. The Pirates were in 1st place at the time and ended up not making the playoffs. Blyleven was a distraction for the rest of the season, demanding a trade. The Pirates did after the season, for Gary Alexander, Victor Cruz, Bob Owchinko and Rafael Vasquez. Who? Lol. A Hofer? in his prime traded for garbage.

In 1991 with the season on the line, Tom Kelly gave the ball to Jack Morris. He pitched 10 shutout innings and the Twins won a championship. To actual baseball players, having your teammate's back is more important than personal stats. Reggie Jackson was about winning championships. To that end Morris is more deserving than Blyleven. It is the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Stats.

I said nothing in my post about Blyleven yet your entire reply was about him???!!!

Reggie's an idiot for lots of things he says including "Jack Morris was the dominant pitcher of his era." Sorry but that statement is idiocy no matter how you slice it.

btcarfagno · #10 12-11-2017, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAllen2556

According to Reggie Jackson on whether Bert Blyleven should have been elected into the Hall of Fame: �No. No, no, no, no. Blyleven wasn�t even the dominant pitcher of his era, it was Jack Morris.�

Good enough for me. I think.

Dave Stieb was a better pitcher than Jack Morris. So were:

Curt Schilling
Rick Reuschel
Kevin Brown
Mike Mussina
David Cone
Bret Saberhagen
Frank Tannana
Chuck Finley
Kevin Appier
Dwight Gooden
Mark Langston
Frank Viola
Kenny Rogers
Jimmy Key

That's just during and after the Jack Morris era

Morris career win% was .577. The win% for his teams when he did not pitch was .538. Thus he didn't make that much of a difference on the outcome for his team overall. He just played on really good teams during his career.

nolemmings · #11 12-11-2017, 10:32 AM

Congratulations to Jack. That makes 3 native sons of St. Paul that have made it to Cooperstown during my lifetime. Now just a few more good seasons and we can wait for Mauer to join them.

One thing about Jack that I believe goes mostly unnoticed is his complete games. In that respect Game 7 from 1991 was a fitting example. He was simply a horse. As for his career, he finished what he started 175 times. Basically 10 per season. That's 57 more than Clemens, more still than Maddux, Pedro and Randy, and 119 better than Glavine. Assuming his productivity tailed off the later he pitched in each game, his ERA is presumably somewhat higher than it otherwise should register. Regardless, it's pretty apparent that he saved a lot of bullpen arms, probably a stat the geeks haven't been able to quantify and rationalize for us yet, so as to tell us we don't know what we saw with our own eyes.

Peter_Spaeth · #12 12-11-2017, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAllen2556

According to Reggie Jackson on whether Bert Blyleven should have been elected into the Hall of Fame: �No. No, no, no, no. Blyleven wasn�t even the dominant pitcher of his era, it was Jack Morris.�

Good enough for me. I think.

Blyleven's ERA was 60 points lower.

btcarfagno · #13 12-11-2017, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Blyleven's ERA was 60 points lower.

But Chuck Tanner didn't like him and while he didn't get the start in game 5 of the 1979 series, he did get the win in the game throwing four shutout innings, entering the game in the top of the sixth with the Pirates trailing 1-0. Yeah. Tanner had no faith in that guy.

Oh. And Morris pitched a good game in the World Series once. He was crap when called upon the following year. But that's not the narrative here.

Oh. To the above list I posted of players during and since Morris that were better than him, also alongside David Wells as being at least his equal, add Bob Welch as well.

rats60 · #14 12-11-2017, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

But Chuck Tanner didn't like him and while he didn't get the start in game 5 of the 1979 series, he did get the win in the game throwing four shutout innings, entering the game in the top of the sixth with the Pirates trailing 1-0. Yeah. Tanner had no faith in that guy.

Oh. And Morris pitched a good game in the World Series once. He was crap when called upon the following year. But that's not the narrative here.

Oh. To the above list I posted of players during and since Morris that were better than him, also alongside David Wells as being at least his equal, add Bob Welch as well.

10>4 and Blyleven got the win because the Pirstes scored 7 runs in innings 6 to 8.

btcarfagno · #15 12-11-2017, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rats60

10>4 and Blyleven got the win because the Pirstes scored 7 runs in innings 6 to 8.

I have no idea what 10>4 means. If it has something to do with Morris somehow being better than Blyleven, or even close to his equal, I'm sorry but that's laughable. Chuck Tanner or no Chuck Tanner.

Please tell me why Jack Morris is in the Hall and David Wells isn't? They are pretty much the same pitcher.

Bob Welch?
Frank Tanana?
Rick Reuschel?
Dave Stieb?

All career contemporaries who were better than Morris.

David Cone?
Bret Saberhagen?
Kevin Brown?
Dwight Gooden?
Jimmy Key?

All better than Jack Morris.

Morris had a lot of wins playing for better than .500 teams in all but two years of his career. He was a product of the teams he played for in terms of his number of wins. What else did he do well?

sycks22 · #16 12-11-2017, 12:23 PM

I think Morris got an extra bump based on his terrific moustache.

Orioles1954 · #17 12-11-2017, 12:23 PM

Lou Whitaker was better.

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