OT: Hall of Fame - Edgar Martinez?

[Robextend]

I don't think Hoffman had a HOF worthy career, however when you look at Bruce Sutter being in, it's hard to argue. I personally thought Billy Wagner was the more dominant closer for quite a few years...just didn't accumulate the numbers that Hoffman did.

[btcarfagno]

When I look at Edgar Martinez stats, I see someone who, if he had been a shitty fielder, would likely deserve to be in the Hall Of Fame. My problem with potentially voting for him, however, is that, had he been forced to play in the field as well as hit over the years, his offensive stats would likely not have been as good as they were. Are his offensive stats so good that a bit of a dip in them would retain their Hall Of Fame worthiness? I'm not so sure.

[Robextend]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

When I look at Edgar Martinez stats, I see someone who, if he had been a shitty fielder, would likely deserve to be in the Hall Of Fame. My problem with potentially voting for him, however, is that, had he been forced to play in the field as well as hit over the years, his offensive stats would likely not have been as good as they were. Are his offensive stats so good that a bit of a dip in them would retain their Hall Of Fame worthiness? I'm not so sure.

Agreed. Also Coors field aside, how can you put Edgar in without Larry Walker? Walker had almost identical numbers + an MVP and 7 gold gloves.

[packs]

I think Walker is a HOFer too. But I don't see what defense has to do with anything. Pitchers don't get overlooked for being terrible hitters so I really don't understand this stance where Edgar is less deserving for not playing the field. He was there to hit and no one was better than he was.

Also all this talk about defense has me wondering why none of you guys are out on a limb for Vizquel. He was one of the greatest fielding shortstops of all time and only got a little more than a third of the vote.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by packs

I think Walker is a HOFer too. But I don't see what defense has to do with anything. Pitchers don't get overlooked for being terrible hitters so I really don't understand this stance where Edgar is less deserving for not playing the field. He was there to hit and no one was better than he was.

Also all this talk about defense has me wondering why none of you guys are out on a limb for Vizquel. He was one of the greatest fielding shortstops of all time and only got a little more than a third of the vote.

Vizquel had a high fielding percentage, but he was average defensively. Vizquel averaged 4.62 plays per game. The league average was 4.61. Because of his average range, he is 18th in TZR.

[packs]

That would be a fine analysis unless you saw the guy play. You're going to tell me that anyone watching Vizquel play thought he was anything other than the best fielder in the game? There are two shortstops all time who have won at least 10 gold gloves. Those shortstops Ozzie Smith and Omar Vizquel.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

That would be a fine analysis unless you saw the guy play. You're going to tell me that anyone watching Vizquel play thought he was anything other than the best fielder in the game? There are two shortstops all time who have won at least 10 gold gloves. Those shortstops Ozzie Smith and Omar Vizquel.

Fielding stats are all misleading IMO. From all the Indians Red Sox games I saw, Vizquel was sensational.

[mr2686]

Originally Posted by rats60

Vizquel had a high fielding percentage, but he was average defensively. Vizquel averaged 4.62 plays per game. The league average was 4.61. Because of his average range, he is 18th in TZR.

Not sure if we're looking at different stats, but I see that Vizquel was 5th career in TZR at SS. Only Ozzie, Ripken, Aparicio, and Belanger are ahead...all in the HOF except Belanger who was a poor hitter. I saw Vizquel play several games, and I definitely wouldn't say he had average range.

As for Martinez (mentioned a few posts previously), I don't buy that he wouldn't have hit as well if he had to play defense. Some players don't hit as well if they're sitting on the bench, but they do hit if they're more "in" the game by playing the field. On the other side of the coin, are we assuming that Aaron would have hit 900 homeruns if he could have DH'd his whole career?
Guys, DH is part of the game...has been for many years. Why not put the very best in the Hall?

[packs]

Originally Posted by mr2686

Not sure if we're looking at different stats, but I see that Vizquel was 5th career in TZR at SS. Only Ozzie, Ripken, Aparicio, and Belanger are ahead...all in the HOF except Belanger who was a poor hitter. I saw Vizquel play several games, and I definitely wouldn't say he had average range.

As for Martinez (mentioned a few posts previously), I don't buy that he wouldn't have hit as well if he had to play defense. Some players don't hit as well if they're sitting on the bench, but they do hit if they're more "in" the game by playing the field. On the other side of the coin, are we assuming that Aaron would have hit 900 homeruns if he could have DH'd his whole career?
Guys, DH is part of the game...has been for many years. Why not put the very best in the Hall?

It's just an insane way to view Vizquel. He played during the peak of ESPN and Sportscenter. I saw him daily. No one who ever watched him play thought he was just an average guy. That viewpoint makes no sense to me.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by mr2686

Not sure if we're looking at different stats, but I see that Vizquel was 5th career in TZR at SS. Only Ozzie, Ripken, Aparicio, and Belanger are ahead...all in the HOF except Belanger who was a poor hitter. I saw Vizquel play several games, and I definitely wouldn't say he had average range.

As for Martinez (mentioned a few posts previously), I don't buy that he wouldn't have hit as well if he had to play defense. Some players don't hit as well if they're sitting on the bench, but they do hit if they're more "in" the game by playing the field. On the other side of the coin, are we assuming that Aaron would have hit 900 homeruns if he could have DH'd his whole career?
Guys, DH is part of the game...has been for many years. Why not put the very best in the Hall?

Far more chance of him getting hurt if he plays the field as well. That by itself would dampen his offensive stats. And if the injury was career threatening...

And anyone who thinks Omar Vizquel had bad range is off his rocker. Vizquel got to balls 99% of shortstops wouldn't even try to get to.

[timn1]

That's a pretty big aside!


Walker:
Home .348 .431 .637
Away .278 .370 .495

Martinez
Home .311 .423 .517
Away .312 .412 .514

Originally Posted by Robextend

Agreed. Also Coors field aside, how can you put Edgar in without Larry Walker? Walker had almost identical numbers + an MVP and 7 gold gloves.

[Baseball Rarities]

Originally Posted by timn1

That's a pretty big aside!


Walker:
Home .348 .431 .637
Away .278 .370 .495

Martinez
Home .311 .423 .517
Away .312 .412 .514

I agree that this is hard to overlook. I think that in Walker's case it is fair to judge him more on is away stats, which I do not think are HOF worthy.

[BeanTown]

Chipper Jones joins Babe Ruth, Stan Musial, Lou Gehrig, Mel Ott and Ted Williams as one of only six players in MLB history to record a .300 batting average, a .400 on-base percentage, a .500 slugging percentage, 450 home runs, 1,500 walks, 1,600 RBIs and 1,600 runs.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by Baseball Rarities

I agree that this is hard to overlook. I think that in Walker's case it is fair to judge him more on is away stats, which I do not think are HOF worthy.

It is impossible to look at the stats of Walker or Todd Helton without taking ballpark into extreme consideration. Although Walker's career OPS+ of 140 takes ballpark into account, so he was still a very good hitter. Almost as good as Edgar. Then you throw in his outstanding defense...

Also, you rarely hear anyone talk about how much better Sandy Koufax was at Dodger Stadium than he was away from it. Starting in 1962 when Dodger Stadium opened, his home ERA was an unreal 1.37. That is over a five year span. His away ERA over that same span was 2.57.

[timn1]

I think to fetishize the "5-tool player" when arguing about the HOF is a bit silly. Players who are genuinely outstanding in all 5 tools come along about once in a generation (Cobb, Speaker, DiMaggio, Mantle, Mays, Griffey Jr, Trout, maybe a few others). And even then, about half the 5-toolers lose their speed by age 30....

Except for those few, almost all players, even the greatest, are MLB average or worse at one or more of these skills. Collins didn't hit for power, Clemente didn't walk (which is one of the REAL 5 tools), Sisler couldn't walk or throw, Gehrig had legs like tree trunks, Ripken couldn't run if his pants were on fire but at least he fielded his position well, which the greatest hitter of all time (or at least second greatest) couldn't be bothered to do. Etc. etc.

If you limited the HOF to true 5-tool players you would have about 10 guys in there (which is what some people around here seem to want).

Like other sports and fields of achievement, baseball has become more ever specialized as it matures. The DH has been around for almost half a century, and the relief ace/closer even longer. If the rules permit that type of specialist player, then to exclude the best of them from the HOF would make the HOF not a fair representation of the game as it's played.

Example: Edgar Martinez played almost 600 games in the field. He wasn't very good at third base but like a lot of 3B, if the DH hadn't existed he would have been moved to 1B and would have been perfectly adequate, like a hundred other pure hitters who wound up at 1B. To penalize him because the DH does exist in the rules is ridiculous.

Check out retrosheet.org. Their WAR-style stat is called BFW. Edgar has a 45.4 career BFW, which is exactly the same as Griffey Jr and higher than about 3/4 of the players in the HOF. Since 2000 only four non-pitchers with a higher BFW have been elected: Boggs, Thomas, Bagwell, and Henderson.

I hope Edgar will get in next year.