OT: Hall of Fame - Edgar Martinez?

[rats60]

Originally Posted by hysell

Ozzie smith vrs O. Vizquel ? Omar had a much better arm, that is a fact ! Bare handed throw , he made it a art form ? Also i would have to say Ozzie's got a few of Barry Larkin's gold gloves in his house ? I seen 3 games & Larkin out fielded & out hit Ozzie in all of those games, I also watched most of there games , through out there whole careers , Barry's arm was much better, then Ozzie"s was . But , yet Ozzie was a 1st ballet HOFer & Barry had to wait a couple of years ? If Ozzie was a 1st ballet HOFer , why did Ryne Sandberg , also have to wait a couple of years to get in ? {THAT } is the problem with the { VOTERS } of the Hall Of Fame ! PERIOD ! Look we all will never agree on all players, just like life problems ? Here"s 1 for you, if Gary Carter is a HOFer, then were is Lance Parrish ? Both were the KEY catchers in the 1980"s, both had good arms & won gold gloves & both hit 324 HRS ?

During Ozzie Smith's top 8 seasons, he averaged 545 assists. During Omar Visquel's top 8 seasons, he averaged 440 assists. That is 105 hits per season that got by Omar that Ozzie Smith turned into outs. Strong arm or bare handing balls are irrelevant when you can't catch the ball. The fact is that Omar had average range. Being the best at making routine plays doesn't make you a Hofer. Saving your team over 100 outs per season and the runs those hits would have produced is deserving of Hof.

There is one guy on the Hof ballot who deserves Hof for his defense, Andrew Jones. Jones saved his team 243 runs in 15 seasons compared to Omar Vizquel saving only 133 runs over 24 seasons. Jones was 11% above league average offensively, not 18% below average like Vizquel. The only advantage Vizquel has is sticking around for 24 years. Are we going to elect Jaime Moyer and Charlie Hough to the Hof too? They played longer than Vizquel.

[Throttlesteer]

We change the rules, we change the statistics, and we try to compare players across generations. Does Jim Bunning get in today? How about Joe Tinker? The HOF is really a generational popularity game. Sure, the case can be made using stats and comparisons. But, players have made it into the hall for being the best at their position for the generation, being a multi-tool talent, being a great defensive player, having longevity, or even being part of a famous poem. Does Edgar belong, I think so if the DH is considered an important part of the game. Hoffman, without a doubt. The hard part is trying to crack the top of the list when you come up a year where the talent runs deep. I wouldn't try to justify why a previous turn-of-the-century hitter shouldn't be in the HOF because their HR numbers aren't on par with Pujols or Thome. Nor would I compare Cy Young to Greg Maddux. WAR might provide a perspective that helps normalize some of the bias, but I'm hesitant to use it across the board. We would be kicking a lot of great players out of the Hall if that were the case.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

During Ozzie Smith's top 8 seasons, he averaged 545 assists. During Omar Visquel's top 8 seasons, he averaged 440 assists. That is 105 hits per season that got by Omar that Ozzie Smith turned into outs. Strong arm or bare handing balls are irrelevant when you can't catch the ball. The fact is that Omar had average range. Being the best at making routine plays doesn't make you a Hofer. Saving your team over 100 outs per season and the runs those hits would have produced is deserving of Hof.

There is one guy on the Hof ballot who deserves Hof for his defense, Andrew Jones. Jones saved his team 243 runs in 15 seasons compared to Omar Vizquel saving only 133 runs over 24 seasons. Jones was 11% above league average offensively, not 18% below average like Vizquel. The only advantage Vizquel has is sticking around for 24 years. Are we going to elect Jaime Moyer and Charlie Hough to the Hof too? They played longer than Vizquel.

Who made more errors on average? Also I'm not quite sure having X more assists than the next guy automatically translates into the next guy let X more balls by him for hits. By that logic why didn't Tejada, who led the league in assists 7 times during his career, ever win a gold glove?

[packs]

I didn't realize you could penalize a guy because a batter didn't hit a ball to him. Great next gen stats.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by packs

I didn't realize you could penalize a guy because a batter didn't hit a ball to him. Great next gen stats.

Yes and no. You can't penalize a guy because another guy didn't hit the ball to him. But in the aggregate, it is VERY LIKELY that as many balls were hit in the same area, making it statistically similar. And that's the comparison. A 20% difference is pretty significant.

[packs]

He's talking about assists. You can't get an assist without a ball hit to you. Assuming the difference in assists figures is based on base hits seems presumptuous.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by tschock

Yes and no. You can't penalize a guy because another guy didn't hit the ball to him. But in the aggregate, it is VERY LIKELY that as many balls were hit in the same area, making it statistically similar. And that's the comparison. A 20% difference is pretty significant.

That assumption may or may not be true. If it is, then range factor should be the be all and end all, no? But obviously people think it isn't because newer metrics keep getting invented.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by packs

I didn't realize you could penalize a guy because a batter didn't hit a ball to him. Great next gen stats.

That is the whole point of playing shortstop. When the ball isn't hit directly to you, you have the ability to go get the ball and make a play. Ozzie Smith fielded balls that other shortstops, including Vizquel couldn't get to.

If Vizquel was some great shortstop, you would think he would lead the league in assists once, just from some random variance. Derek Jeter was a statue and he led once and finished second once. Your idea that balls were never hit close to Vizquel is absurd. I took an 8 year sample because there is going to be some variance, but when Vizquel is never close to Smith, even one single season, it just confirms what I saw. Smith had great range, Vizquel had average range.

You keep bringing up Gold Gloves. Gold Gloves are a popularity contest, voted on by managers. How else do you explain Derek Jeter winning 5? He is universally regarded as a bad defensive shortstop.

[packs]

That's a really poor argument. You said before that the difference in assists must be because Vizquel let base hits through. There's no way to know that. Bringing Jeter into things doesn't seem to fit either. There hasn't only been 2 shortstops to ever win 5 gold gloves. Vizquel won 11.

[hysell]

:1" st, I would also point out that the Cardinals pitchers WERE NOT a strikeout staff ? Were Omar's teams did have some players who could do that ? So with that said , he would have lost a few more outs / chances per year & Omar had a few more injuries then Ozzie did also ? Same could be said for sure on Barry's career ?

[hysell]

RATS60 ? Andrew Jones , are you for real ?After he signed with the Dodgers & other teams , he was more or less a back up player & went to play in Japan at age 35 & was done by age 36 ? I all ways had thoughts on him juicing up ?Was even benched 2 time I think by Bobby for dogging it out on the field ? Good ball player & I seen his whole career , too . How can you be washed up by the 2009 season , when he was mainly a DH for the Rangers ? Still was in his early 30's at that time & was done by 2013 , some thing there is not right ?

[slipk1068]

I will preface this post by saying I haven't read any of this thread, haven't looked at any of his numbers, and being an NL guy who lives on the east coast, didn't see much of him.

But my memory of him is that he was a BEAST at the plate. HOFer all the way

[triwak]

Congrats to the new class. Photo taken at my favorite watering hole, just moments after purchasing these from my local card shop. Always enjoy celebrating HOF selection day!!