Importance of Provenance

[swarmee]

I paid $50 for a $2 card last week because it had Jeff Burdick's back stamp. Wanted one of those anyways, but this one was in the set I collect mainly (T51 colleges). First one I've seen with his stamp in the four years I've been collecting, so I thought it was worth it.
There are people that will pay extra for F. Scott Fitzgerald's stamped cards as well.

[drcy]

I cataloged a bunch of CDVs that belonged to Charles Dickens. I don't know about you guys, but I thought that pretty cool, even though I didn't like having to read his 900 page novels in English class.

[Gary Dunaier]

Originally Posted by drcy

I cataloged a bunch of CDVs that belonged to Charles Dickens.

Are you sure they didn't actually belong to Charles Dikkens the well-known Dutch author?

[Griffins]

Originally Posted by Gary Dunaier

Are you sure they didn't actually belong to Charles Dikkens the well-known Dutch author?

Have to be careful, I heard about a guy that bought the wrong Jon Voights car. Turned out to belong to a dentist, not the actor.

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by drcy

I cataloged a bunch of CDVs that belonged to Charles Dickens. I don't know about you guys, but I thought that pretty cool, even though I didn't like having to read his 900 page novels in English class.

I am one-third of the way through 'David Copperfield' right now. I never read it before. Barnes and Nobles had this large group of classic books for $5.00 in store. I bought quite a few. I have read 'Great Expectations', 'A Tale of Two Cities', 'The Art of War', 'Siddartha', 'The Origin of Species' and 'The Count of Monte Cristo' so far this year. Next up is 'The Brothers Karamazov' or 'Bleak House' each 800 pages or so. The toughest read was 'The Origin of Species'.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by Michael B

I am one-third of the way through 'David Copperfield' right now. I never read it before. Barnes and Nobles had this large group of classic books for $5.00 in store. I bought quite a few. I have read 'Great Expectations', 'A Tale of Two Cities', 'The Art of War', 'Siddartha', 'The Origin of Species' and 'The Count of Monte Cristo' so far this year. Next up is 'The Brothers Karamazov' or 'Bleak House' each 800 pages or so. The toughest read was 'The Origin of Species'.

The Brothers Karamazov is a great book. Dostoyevski was my favorite author, back when I used to read. The length never bothered me. Michener, on the other hand, ugh.

[GasHouseGang]

I wouldn't necessarily pay extra for a card with provenance, but I got these two for what you would normally pay for the card in this grade.

[brian1961]

Lots of answers with various lines of thought.

As someone who personally knew Mr. Lionel Carter, I would most assuredly pay more for a card from his personal collection. Not a lot more, but there were some of Mr. Carter's cards that were WOW. Three examples come to mind----an SGC 98 '34 Goudey Hank Greenberg, an SGC 96 '51 Bowman Mickey Mantle, and an SGC 84 '53 Glendale Franks Art Houtteman. Being from Mr. Carter's personal collection was truly icing on the cake. He was an absolute fanatic about condition during his years of collecting, when the far majority of his fellow collectors were simply content just having the card, regardless of its condition.

For the vast majority of cards, I am with the collector who insists he does not care in the least.

However, for the creme of the creme, provenance spells authenticity, genuineness, and allure to the point of DEEP, GOTTA HAVE IT DESIRABILITY. Now, let me say when I think of provenance, I refer to the entire history of the item---the promotion from whence it came, how challenging it was for kids to get a hold of one during the brief window of opportunity at the time, and if possible, who owned the piece along the way.

Taken collectively, you build either an appealing sea story, or a "SO WHAT!" A lot of people don't get into good sea stories, but then they might have an infantile attention span, and the understanding and appreciation for the finer things of a crum bum. That's perfectly fine; they have their own highly desirable cards and sets, and it means less competition for the few who recognize the merits and beauty of the profoundly rare.

To sweep all that precious information and background story aside as hogwash is pure idiocy. For some highly desirable cards and items that could command boo coo from an auction dogfight or private sale, provenance is essential if not downright mandatory.

Most of you probably are aware of how important provenance is to the fine art world, or collector car world, rare gems, or rare coins and stamps. Perhaps you think for our world of sports cards, it isn't worth the trouble. Again, for most trading cards, and cars, coins, stamps, and so on, they are merely E Pluribus Unum.

For the creme of the creme, I want and need the provenance. ---Brian Powell

[drcy]

I look at the topic of provenance and cards differently. I bet all here would be, at the least, hesitant to buy a mint card from a well-known card doctor, or that can be traced to a well-known card doctor. This is an example of assessing and purchasing cards using provenance, and has nothing to with a card having once been by Mickey Mantle or being traced to its original owner. When someone says the the provenance of cards makes no matter to them, I say "Sure it does."

When you get into more esoteric baseball memorabilia-- such as a early 1905 Yale team trophy ball or unique proof--, then where it came from, such as a well respected and honest seller who knows his stuff, obviously becomes more important, because you're dealing with identity and authenticity. And most people know that when you turn to resell it, that it was obtained from a respected dealer who knows his stuff is an important and sometimes even essential selling point.

[Bestdj777]

Originally Posted by swarmee

I paid $50 for a $2 card last week because it had Jeff Burdick's back stamp. Wanted one of those anyways, but this one was in the set I collect mainly (T51 colleges). First one I've seen with his stamp in the four years I've been collecting, so I thought it was worth it.
There are people that will pay extra for F. Scott Fitzgerald's stamped cards as well.

These are to two situations where provenance has mattered to me--my Burdick and Fitzgerald* cards. But, I didn't pick those up because I wanted the card but rather because I wanted something tied to the prior owner. Just like, at some point, I'll pick up a Lionel Carter card to have that in my collection.

If I was looking to purchase a Mickey Mantle card, short of having been owned by Mantle himself, I wouldn't care whether it was an original owner card, part of some find, etc.

[packs]

I just can't think of a reason why provenance would be important for something issued in the tens of thousands or perhaps even millions.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by packs

I just can't think of a reason why provenance would be important for something issued in the tens of thousands or perhaps even millions.

Not everything was issued in huge quantities like that.

I can think of a couple instances where it could matter.

In the case of a card that's "new" or very nearly unknown. Like if someone turned up a T206 with a Hustler back. The provenance would matter since the card was listed probably by error years ago as a known back, but it's generally believed that they never existed.
Wouldn't you want to know as much as possible about where it's supposedly been since 1910?
If it's from some random guy would you trust it as much as if it came from the family of an early collector who traded at least a list with Burdick and had letters from him mentioning the card?


Or, a more common card.
Lets say you can afford and really want a nice green Cobb T206. You find one, but it was previously owned by someone who was a known card doctor.
say it's pretty high grade, maybe a 6 or 7.
How much do you trust it knowing that it was owned by someone who altered cards regularly?

[packs]

Did we ever hear anything about the provenance behind the Blue Old Mill? If provenance didn't come up then I don't see how it would apply to a Hustler backed card.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by swarmee

I paid $50 for a $2 card last week because it had Jeff Burdick's back stamp. Wanted one of those anyways, but this one was in the set I collect mainly (T51 colleges). First one I've seen with his stamp in the four years I've been collecting, so I thought it was worth it.
There are people that will pay extra for F. Scott Fitzgerald's stamped cards as well.

Me too. I paid a bit extra for a Burdick stamped card. IMO well worth it. I also paid up for a manufacturer file copy of a card. And there is a definite provenance factor for Topps Vault certified materials.

[nolemmings]

I don't think it's fair for me to render an opinion, since I've never been to Rhode Island.

[oldjudge]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

I don't think it's fair for me to render an opinion, since I've never been to Rhode Island.

Todd-I enjoyed the line, even if no one else caught it.

[brian1961]

This morning I thought of a good example of provenance where it pertains to lineage that would have interested me. A high-grade 1952 Topps Mantle is as great as they come, but would be magnified to me if it came from the Mr. Mint find of 1985-86. That was one momentous event in hobby history. ---Brian Powell

[Snapolit1]

I have been in the hobby far shorter than most of you guys, but it seems to me that most of the momentous "finds" of the last few year have been hyped up to a degree that they never really could fulfill. Who cares where and how a card was found. Might be interesting but I don't see how it impacts what I want to pay for a card.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

I have been in the hobby far shorter than most of you guys, but it seems to me that most of the momentous "finds" of the last few year have been hyped up to a degree that they never really could fulfill. Who cares where and how a card was found. Might be interesting but I don't see how it impacts what I want to pay for a card.

So you don't want to know that a card is fresh to the hobby instead of "who knows whose hands" its been in for the last 100 yrs? I absolutely do if possible. If the card is brand new to the hobby it is much less likely to be screwed with, imo. Kind of like the pack of cards I showed above. No doubt they haven't been "worked on" like thousands and thousands of others, many of which are in slabs today (Harris Collection of tiny borders... LOL)....just my opinion and your mileage may vary.

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