Alteration vs. Conservation Defined

irv · #1 05-13-2019, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by benjulmag

It's an interesting issue. Continuing with the same example, suppose I waited 15 years before submitting the card for forensic testing, during which time the spread between an 8 Cobb and an "A" Cobb increased from, say, $20k to $125k. Could PSA argue I had a duty to undertake the testing years earlier (assuming the forensic testing method was commercially was available during the entire 15-year period) and accordingly their exposure should be limited to $20k. By this line of reasoning, could they argue the statute of limitations has expired such that I am barred from collecting damages altogether?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

They really should have promised to reimburse for out of pocket cost, not current market value. The buyer gets a huge windfall this way in a rising market. As to your question, who knows, it would depend on what the cause of action is and what triggers the statute of limitations I guess. I'd have to think about that. But as it's likely to run from when you did or could have discovered your claim in the exercise of reasonable diligence, you likely would be out.

Is a statute of limitations something that a seller can declare or is it the law that dictates what that period of time is?

barrysloate · #2 05-13-2019, 07:24 PM

In Corey's example, what if PSA refused to agree with the forensic determination? What if they responded that they've reviewed the card several times and that in their opinion their grade of an 8 was completely justified. After all, it's an opinion, not a fact. It might be really hard to prove that they got it wrong.

Peter_Spaeth · #3 05-13-2019, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barrysloate

In Corey's example, what if PSA refused to agree with the forensic determination? What if they responded that they've reviewed the card several times and that in their opinion their grade of an 8 was completely justified. After all, it's an opinion, not a fact. It might be really hard to prove that they got it wrong.

That's the problem. Think David Hall and Wagner. Then you litigate, I guess.

benjulmag · #4 05-13-2019, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

That's the problem. Think David Hall and Wagner. Then you litigate, I guess.

That one IMO would be a turkey shoot. If it is not enough the person who trimmed the card admitted such, which contributed to him being sentenced to prison, you have (i) existent before and after photos of the card, and (ii) physical characteristics of the borders than when enlarged would be substantially identical to countless cards slabbed "A".

Peter_Spaeth · #5 05-13-2019, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by benjulmag

That one would be a turkey shoot. If it is not enough the person who trimmed the card admitted such, which contributed to him being sentenced to prison, you have (i) existent before and after photos of the card, and (ii) physical characteristics of the borders than when enlarged would be substantially identical to countless cards slabbed "A".

What I don't get is that it already was sheet cut, right? It was never issued in a pack. So even if Mastro didn't trim it it's still an AUTH? PS I've seen those Alan Ray photos I thought they were pretty grainy but maybe they can be enhanced, but again, if it's sheet cut already..

benjulmag · #6 05-13-2019, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What I don't get is that it already was sheet cut, right? It was never issued in a pack. So even if Mastro didn't trim it it's still an AUTH? PS I've seen those Alan Ray photos I thought they were pretty grainy but maybe they can be enhanced, but again, if it's sheet cut already..

So if someone has uncut N, T, E and/or R sheets that if cut could produce "10s" of vintage superstars, is because of that a person a multi-millionaire? I'm doubtful.

Peter_Spaeth · #7 05-13-2019, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by benjulmag

So if someone has uncut N, T, E and/or R sheets that if cut could produce "10s" of vintage superstars, is because of that a person a multi-millionaire? I'm doubtful.

I don't follow, sorry. My point, I think, is that the bigger problem with the card is not that it's trimmed but that it's sheet cut to begin with so never could have graded properly. Everyone focuses on the trimming though.

steve B · #8 05-14-2019, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What I don't get is that it already was sheet cut, right? It was never issued in a pack. So even if Mastro didn't trim it it's still an AUTH? PS I've seen those Alan Ray photos I thought they were pretty grainy but maybe they can be enhanced, but again, if it's sheet cut already..

I've never liked the "sheet cut " term. All individual cards are cut from sheets.

peterose4hof · #9 05-14-2019, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve B

I've never liked the "sheet cut " term. All individual cards are cut from sheets.

Perhaps "Post-Factory Cut" would be more accurate, "Sheet Cut" has been the industry standard term for cards cut from a sheet outside of the factory for many, many years now though.

tschock · #10 05-13-2019, 08:08 PM

"If PSA, in fact, concludes that the card in question no longer merits the PSA grade assigned or fails PSA�s authenticity standards, PSA will either:... "

Isn't this really their 'out' here? The card could easily be deemed authentic (or not), but PSA still could 'conclude' it 'merits' the grade given, right?

drcy · #11 05-13-2019, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tschock

"If PSA, in fact, concludes that the card in question no longer merits the PSA grade assigned or fails PSA�s authenticity standards, PSA will either:... "

Isn't this really their 'out' here? The card could easily be deemed authentic (or not), but PSA still could 'conclude' it 'merits' the grade given, right?

I don't think that's what the merit means, even by PSA's definition

benjulmag · #12 05-13-2019, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barrysloate

In Corey's example, what if PSA refused to agree with the forensic determination? What if they responded that they've reviewed the card several times and that in their opinion their grade of an 8 was completely justified. After all, it's an opinion, not a fact. It might be really hard to prove that they got it wrong.

Good question. However...certain kinds of forensic testing can be legally conclusive (e.g., color was added by a substance not commercially available at the time the issue came out).

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