1952 Bowman Stan Musial PSA 10 on eBay :o

[T205 GB]

Hey guys. Someone told me a dead horse beating was going on. Did I miss it or do I have some time to get a few licks in?

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by T205 GB

Hey guys. Someone told me a dead horse beating was going on. Did I miss it or do I have some time to get a few licks in?

get it going...Brent Mastro deserves a good horse whipping. it's the very least we can do to show Brent Mastro our appreciation for all the good he has done.

[nolemmings]

Back to the Musial, this is why I am really suspicious of PSA's involvement. It seems to me incredibly unlikely that someone would take a PSA 9 of a vintage superstar and doctor it in "hopes" of a 10, thereby risking discovery of the alteration by the TPG and a tanking in value. And who knows if you get the 10 even if you're not caught, that grade being so subjective. IMO, the only way you take that chance is if you are cock-sure you are going to beat the grader or if you somehow know that you will.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Back to the Musial, this is why I am really suspicious of PSA's involvement. It seems to me incredibly unlikely that someone would take a PSA 9 of a vintage superstar and doctor it in "hopes" of a 10, thereby risking discovery of the alteration by the TPG and a tanking in value. And who knows if you get the 10 even if you're not caught, that grade being so subjective. IMO, the only way you take that chance is if you are cock-sure you are going to beat the grader or if you somehow know that you will.

Risk reward. When you are making that much money you can take risks here and there for huge upside. If it goes south, a few K down the drain, so what.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Risk reward. When you are making that much money you can take risks here and there for huge upside. If it goes south, a few K down the drain, so what.

Sounds just like options trading when your winning.

[Bram99]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Back to the Musial, this is why I am really suspicious of PSA's involvement. It seems to me incredibly unlikely that someone would take a PSA 9 of a vintage superstar and doctor it in "hopes" of a 10, thereby risking discovery of the alteration by the TPG and a tanking in value. And who knows if you get the 10 even if you're not caught, that grade being so subjective. IMO, the only way you take that chance is if you are cock-sure you are going to beat the grader or if you somehow know that you will.

I refuse to believe that someone would take the chance to have the card cracked out, found to be altered, and turn from a "9" to "authentic" with the corresponding loss in more than 90% of it's value. The poster is dead accurate here. This is the best sign I have seen yet that this was not just Moser/PWCC but that there had to be a third actor of some kind.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Bram99

I refuse to believe that someone would take the chance to have the card cracked out, found to be altered, and turn from a "9" to "authentic" with the corresponding loss in more than 90% of it's value. The poster is dead accurate here. This is the best sign I have seen yet that this was not just Moser/PWCC but that there had to be a third actor of some kind.

It's a 3K card or whatever it is. It's meaningless to a guy making the kind of money he makes from altering cards. Huge upside, trivial downside. I think you're way off the mark here implicating PSA. This isn't a collector to whom the card means something. It's a piece of paper to him. It's a risk reward calculation to him plain and simple. Nothing else to see here.

[Bram99]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's a 3K card or whatever it is. It's meaningless to a guy making the kind of money he makes from altering cards. Huge upside, trivial downside. I think you're way off the mark here implicating PSA. This isn't a collector to whom the card means something. It's a piece of paper to him. It's a risk reward calculation to him plain and simple. Nothing else to see here.

Is there could be a grader inside. Not saying PSA actively complicit but I would expect a guy who is actively doctoring cards wouldn't take such a risk of loss. I was talking about the Musial and it appears the jump is price is much more than $3k if it got a 10, which it did.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's a 3K card or whatever it is. It's meaningless to a guy making the kind of money he makes from altering cards. Huge upside, trivial downside. I think you're way off the mark here implicating PSA. This isn't a collector to whom the card means something. It's a piece of paper to him. It's a risk reward calculation to him plain and simple. Nothing else to see here.

and they will just keep submitting the same card time after time until they get the desired result. That's what they do, crack, flip, cut, soak, spoon, color, flip crack repeat...all day everyday for 15 years. Let that sink in

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Bram99

I refuse to believe that someone would take the chance to have the card cracked out, found to be altered, and turn from a "9" to "authentic" with the corresponding loss in more than 90% of it's value. The poster is dead accurate here. This is the best sign I have seen yet that this was not just Moser/PWCC but that there had to be a third actor of some kind.

Yes. Coupled with the comment someone else made, that politics might be involved with getting 10s. Way too much downside to try this in a "normal" way....

But I wonder what the mechanics could be, to see a card like this shepherded through the system end to end. That part still seems implausible.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Yes. Coupled with the comment someone else made, that politics might be involved with getting 10s. Way too much downside to try this in a "normal" way....

But I wonder what the mechanics could be, to see a card like this shepherded through the system end to end. That part still seems implausible.

Downside only exists relative to upside. You guys are not seeing how this man operates. He risked 3K. He made 25K. 3K is a trivial risk to him. Context.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Downside only exists relative to upside. You guys are not seeing how this man operates.

You are correct Peter.

I have thrown 3k at a trade that had two days until the option expired. A ticking time bomb. He clearly had asymmetric risk here. It appears more that he has confidence in his work and isn't concerned about getting rendered with the AUTH grade or it staying there.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Back to the Musial, this is why I am really suspicious of PSA's involvement. It seems to me incredibly unlikely that someone would take a PSA 9 of a vintage superstar and doctor it in "hopes" of a 10, thereby risking discovery of the alteration by the TPG and a tanking in value. And who knows if you get the 10 even if you're not caught, that grade being so subjective. IMO, the only way you take that chance is if you are cock-sure you are going to beat the grader or if you somehow know that you will.

+1. Who the hell has balls big enough to take a 9 of a fairly big time card/player and alter it hoping for a 10. Even if he knew for sure that you could successfully make all the alterations without detection, what makes him think he wood get a 10 when there none previous. HUGE balls or the fix was in from the getgo. This one seems to indicate the latter

Edited - I just read all the posts after the quote. I do believe the Doctor could make a business risk-reward proposition on $3k - the ups are worth the downs. The problem is there were NO/ZERO 10’s previously. Risking $3k to get an 8x multiple return makes sense. But not when the historical odds of achieving that goal is nil. I guess there always could be a first, but shouldn’t that have alerted psa? All these 52 Musials graded and never a 10 and then one just comes out of nowhere?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

+1. Who the hell has balls big enough to take a 9 of a fairly big time card/player and alter it hoping for a 10. Even if he knew for sure that you could successfully make all the alterations without detection, what makes him think he wood get a 10 when there none previous. HUGE balls or the fix was in from the getgo. This one seems to indicate the latter

It takes no balls at all for someone with hundreds of thousands of dollars in cards and probably millions in the bank to take a gamble on a 3K card, with a huge upside. You can't see that?

[Bicem]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It takes no balls at all for someone with hundreds of thousands of dollars in cards and probably millions in the bank to take a gamble on a 3K card, with a huge upside. You can't see that?

Exactly, plus if it comes back a 9 he's lost nothing.

[swarmee]

Actually, at a 9, it probably still goes higher after the touchups. He's made a lot of profit on cards that stayed the same technical grade if you check the thread on Blowout, just by improving the centering or eye appeal.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by Bicem

Exactly, plus if it comes back a 9 he's lost nothing.

True!! It did not occur to me it could come back something other than a 10 or altered (but I am not that smart to begin with!). And I guess if it comes back altered, or a 8 or 9, he cracks a resubmits, over and over until he gets the 10 or gives up. Perhaps that is what happened.

Ok Peter, I am convinced. It’s not PSA on this one; at least they were not knowingly involved.

[Rhotchkiss]

Mess up. See edited post above - it’s not the dollars, but the odds.

Regardless, it’s a shame what this a@@hole has done to amazing pieces of American history. I hope something very bad happens to Gary Moser.

Ryan Hotchkiss (and Gary, I will gladly meet you in person if you take exception to my post)