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  #1  
Old 06-21-2019, 12:12 PM
Frank A Frank A is offline
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Originally Posted by steve B View Post
I'm not quite Nostradamus, but I predict SGC will also get an F.
For what reason? Or are you just pissed because they are clean.
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  #2  
Old 06-21-2019, 12:22 PM
dabbuu dabbuu is offline
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Why does everyone wish bad upon SGC? They have been pretty clean so far. Wouldn't it be nice if one company was actually relatively good at spotting doctored cards?
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  #3  
Old 06-21-2019, 05:07 PM
steve B steve B is offline
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Originally Posted by dabbuu View Post
Why does everyone wish bad upon SGC? They have been pretty clean so far. Wouldn't it be nice if one company was actually relatively good at spotting doctored cards?
I don't wish bad on them, they may be marginally better at spotting alterations, or simply more cautious about things. But as far as I know they dodge responsibility with the best of them.

And of course, PSA is so bad almost anyone could be relatively good in comparison.
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  #4  
Old 06-21-2019, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by steve B View Post
I don't wish bad on them, they may be marginally better at spotting alterations, or simply more cautious about things. But as far as I know they dodge responsibility with the best of them.

And of course, PSA is so bad almost anyone could be relatively good in comparison.
Not Beckett, apparently.
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  #5  
Old 06-21-2019, 05:47 PM
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I can go on record saying that Gary Moser, nor any of the other named card doctors have ever consigned to my auction.

I did not know I needed to weigh-in, if there was no issue with my consignors. Apparently judgement has already been passed.


Scott

Brockelman Auctions
Last edited by sb1; 06-21-2019 at 05:48 PM.
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  #6  
Old 06-21-2019, 06:41 PM
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i am experiencing great uncertainty and don’t know what to make of the situation. please help.
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  #7  
Old 06-21-2019, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by RedsFan1941 View Post
i am experiencing great uncertainty and don’t know what to make of the situation. please help.
I will do what I can for you. If you have any Wade Boggs, Roger Clemens, Ted Williams, or Eddie Mathews cards/memorabilia sell it to me know really cheap before it becomes completely worthless. Hope this helps.
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  #8  
Old 06-21-2019, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by sb1 View Post
I can go on record saying that Gary Moser, nor any of the other named card doctors have ever consigned to my auction.

I did not know I needed to weigh-in, if there was no issue with my consignors. Apparently judgement has already been passed.


Scott

Brockelman Auctions
I would upgrade Brockelman to an A for this response.
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  #9  
Old 06-21-2019, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by pokerplyr80 View Post
I would upgrade Brockelman to an A for this response.
Yes I agree, I am sure most of us except Ronnie who is self-sufficient appreciate the response by Scott.
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  #10  
Old 06-21-2019, 06:48 PM
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Not Beckett, apparently.
Nice.
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  #11  
Old 06-21-2019, 06:53 PM
topcat61 topcat61 is offline
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Originally Posted by dabbuu View Post
Why does everyone wish bad upon SGC? They have been pretty clean so far. Wouldn't it be nice if one company was actually relatively good at spotting doctored cards?
They are not clean. They've authenticated forged autographs and that one is still being investigated by the FBI.
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  #12  
Old 06-21-2019, 08:20 PM
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They are not clean. They've authenticated forged autographs and that one is still being investigated by the FBI.
SGC is being investigated by the FBI? Are they aware of this?
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  #13  
Old 06-21-2019, 08:30 PM
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SGC is being investigated by the FBI? Are they aware of this?
Maybe it is a double secret investigation, has to be a secret if their lawyer doesn't know about it.
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  #14  
Old 06-25-2019, 12:51 PM
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Maybe it is a double secret investigation, has to be a secret if their lawyer doesn't know about it.
You remember SGC graders were involved in grading forged signatures, which would fall under the preview of the FBI. I believe they're still working that case. The SEC would only look at this company if it were publicly traded. It appears to be an LLC.
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  #15  
Old 06-25-2019, 01:48 PM
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You remember SGC graders were involved in grading forged signatures, which would fall under the preview of the FBI. I believe they're still working that case. The SEC would only look at this company if it were publicly traded. It appears to be an LLC.
The investigation is of the forger, not SGC.
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  #16  
Old 06-21-2019, 12:23 PM
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They're not really clean they're just significantly less dirty at this point. Maybe a small wax stain which can be removed?

My big regret is that my behind the scenes efforts appear to have gone for naught. It's not 100% yet so I still won't go into detail. But I did work hard at making a difference, which a couple board members can attest to.
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Last edited by Aquarian Sports Cards; 06-21-2019 at 12:25 PM.
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  #17  
Old 06-21-2019, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards View Post
They're not really clean they're just significantly less dirty at this point. Maybe a small wax stain which can be removed?

My big regret is that my behind the scenes efforts appear to have gone for naught. It's not 100% yet so I still won't go into detail. But I did work hard at making a difference, which a couple board members can attest to.
Scott that effort may not have paid off but there is another one that may still be viable.
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  #18  
Old 06-21-2019, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Scott that effort may not have paid off but there is another one that may still be viable.
Can't imagine how I could help, but you know I'm here if I can be useful.
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  #19  
Old 06-21-2019, 12:29 PM
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For what reason? Or are you just pissed because they are clean.
Didn't they Authenticate a whole bunch of fake autos on T206 .
Not so clean.

JohnP
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  #20  
Old 06-21-2019, 12:40 PM
Frank A Frank A is offline
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Originally Posted by JohnP0621 View Post
Didn't they Authenticate a whole bunch of fake autos on T206 .
Not so clean.

JohnP
But when they found out, they stopped authenticating auto's. Do you thin PSA will stop authenticating Cards?
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  #21  
Old 06-21-2019, 12:50 PM
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But when they found out, they stopped authenticating auto's. Do you thin PSA will stop authenticating Cards?
We can only hope.
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  #22  
Old 06-21-2019, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Frank A View Post
But when they found out, they stopped authenticating auto's. Do you thin PSA will stop authenticating Cards?
SGC also bumped some of Gary’s biggest profits with the 1948 Leaf Jackie Robinson’s... they definitely have a lower quantity discovered thus far, but they aren’t really any better.
Last edited by BLongley; 06-21-2019 at 01:16 PM.
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  #23  
Old 06-21-2019, 01:24 PM
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SGC also bumped some of Gary’s biggest profits with the 1948 Leaf Jackie Robinson’s... they definitely have a lower quantity discovered thus far, but they aren’t really any better.
I mean, they can't be exactly equally bad, but it's not definitive from the absolute numbers of grading errors revealed to date that PSAs batting average with the doctored cards is worse than SGCs. I would guess it is, but it wouldn't surprise me either way. Certainly PSA has had vastly more plate appearances. That could be because Moser/Brent knew the cards had a better chance of getting through there, but PSA would also give them a better ROI even if they figured the cards had the same chance of getting through with SGC as with PSA.
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  #24  
Old 06-23-2019, 05:09 AM
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SGC also bumped some of Gary’s biggest profits with the 1948 Leaf Jackie Robinson’s... they definitely have a lower quantity discovered thus far, but they aren’t really any better.

65k bump on a 1914 Joe Jackson just posted as well
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  #25  
Old 06-23-2019, 08:23 AM
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65k bump on a 1914 Joe Jackson just posted as well
Given the price disparity in the holders, I am wondering if they go to SGC only for cards PSA has actually caught and rejected?
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  #26  
Old 06-23-2019, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Given the price disparity in the holders, I am wondering if they go to SGC only for cards PSA has actually caught and rejected?
I have to think so. But then again, they bought cards from their OWN auctions, altered them, and resold through their OWN auctions. Guess they thought people wouldn't catch on
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  #27  
Old 06-22-2019, 12:04 PM
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But when they found out, they stopped authenticating auto's. Do you thin PSA will stop authenticating Cards?
no, but they are so bad at it or corrupt that they should. Very piss poor company.
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  #28  
Old 06-21-2019, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnP0621 View Post
Didn't they Authenticate a whole bunch of fake autos on T206 .
Not so clean.

JohnP
Not fair to include the autograph authentication with the card grading (SGC).

Do we include PSA/DNA with PSA's incompetence?
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  #29  
Old 06-21-2019, 02:09 PM
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Not fair to include the autograph authentication with the card grading (SGC).

Do we include PSA/DNA with PSA's incompetence?
If we are paying for a service that isn't being accurately provided why wouldn't we hold them accountable? If PSA, SGC, or anyone else can't tell the difference between a real or forged signature that's just as bad as being unable to distinguish between an altered or unaltered card.
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  #30  
Old 06-21-2019, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by pokerplyr80 View Post
If we are paying for a service that isn't being accurately provided why wouldn't we hold them accountable? If PSA, SGC, or anyone else can't tell the difference between a real or forged signature that's just as bad as being unable to distinguish between an altered or unaltered card.
First of all I find all autograph authenticators worthless. Many years ago I sent in some auto's to what was supposed to be the top authenticator. They came back as fake. Yet when I sent these same auto's to an auction house the same guys authenticated them as good. They are a total joke.
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  #31  
Old 06-21-2019, 03:31 PM
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First of all I find all autograph authenticators worthless. Many years ago I sent in some auto's to what was supposed to be the top authenticator. They came back as fake. Yet when I sent these same auto's to an auction house the same guys authenticated them as good. They are a total joke.
+1
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  #32  
Old 06-21-2019, 03:46 PM
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Unless there are reports that PSA and PWCC haven’t been refunding clients, I don’t believe F and D respectively is appropriate. I could be wrong though.
Last edited by jhs5120; 06-21-2019 at 03:46 PM.
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  #33  
Old 06-21-2019, 06:49 PM
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First of all I find all autograph authenticators worthless. Many years ago I sent in some auto's to what was supposed to be the top authenticator. They came back as fake. Yet when I sent these same auto's to an auction house the same guys authenticated them as good. They are a total joke.
My favorite story is the one I read of a guy who got an auto at a card show, walked over to an authenticator to get it slabbed, and was told it was fake.
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  #34  
Old 06-21-2019, 06:51 PM
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My favorite story is the one I read of a guy who got an auto at a card show, walked over to an authenticator to get it slabbed, and was told it was fake.
Funny but on a serious note on the flip side of the altered card stuff there are lots of those sorts of errors in grading as well, that is, perfectly fine cards that get rejected. The consequences are not as serious, but it can be bad news for people trying to earn money selling cards.
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Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 06-21-2019 at 06:52 PM.
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  #35  
Old 06-21-2019, 03:04 PM
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If we are paying for a service that isn't being accurately provided why wouldn't we hold them accountable? If PSA, SGC, or anyone else can't tell the difference between a real or forged signature that's just as bad as being unable to distinguish between an altered or unaltered card.
I'm not saying they shouldn't be held accountable. Of course they should. I'm saying they're two separate issues. We're talking card doctoring, not autograph authentication.
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  #36  
Old 06-21-2019, 03:41 PM
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I'm not saying they shouldn't be held accountable. Of course they should. I'm saying they're two separate issues. We're talking card doctoring, not autograph authentication.
I don't really think we disagree, although I do think it's fair to include incompetence in one area with another. Both issues are relevant and important.
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  #37  
Old 06-21-2019, 05:03 PM
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For what reason? Or are you just pissed because they are clean.
Bad stuff gets by them too, and they also won't do anything except fall back on "we were right" when they very obviously weren't.

If that's "clean" I guess we define things differently.
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  #38  
Old 06-23-2019, 01:27 PM
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For what reason? Or are you just pissed because they are clean.
Check out the other thread that's going on about
SGC crossing over PSA cards and bumping them a few grades and than tell me how clean they are (Cracker Jack Joe Jackson from PSA 2 to SGC 5 after altering )T206 Cobb etc. Just Saying !

John P
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  #39  
Old 06-23-2019, 01:41 PM
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Check out the other thread that's going on about
SGC crossing over PSA cards and bumping them a few grades and than tell me how clean they are (Cracker Jack Joe Jackson from PSA 2 to SGC 5 after altering )T206 Cobb etc. Just Saying !

John P
So what is the PSA to SGC ratio on bad cards about 2000 to 1?
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  #40  
Old 06-23-2019, 01:44 PM
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So what is the PSA to SGC ratio on bad cards about 2000 to 1?
Probably the same ratio in which they were submitted.
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  #41  
Old 06-23-2019, 01:50 PM
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Probably the same ratio in which they were submitted.
I'm also guessing it's pretty close to that.
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  #42  
Old 06-23-2019, 02:05 PM
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So what is the PSA to SGC ratio on bad cards about 2000 to 1?
Don't know the Ratio but SGC is not So Clean in all of this mess.Also the Ratio of fake autos that SGC Authenticated is pretty high.
I was only responded to the poster that said SGC was Clean.i Believe they are not .
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  #43  
Old 06-23-2019, 02:12 PM
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Don't know the Ratio but SGC is not So Clean in all of this mess.Also the Ratio of fake autos that SGC Authenticated is pretty high.
I was only responded to the poster that said SGC was Clean.i Believe they are not .
I talk as much smack as everyone but Ted on how completely incompetent SGC was on autographs.

I wasn't trying to single you out, your post just fit my reply(agenda) about how PSA is WAY worse on grading cards. Seems to me a some are a little too happy to see the few(so far) bad SGC cards show up.
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  #44  
Old 06-23-2019, 02:29 PM
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I talk as much smack as everyone but Ted on how completely incompetent SGC was on autographs.

I wasn't trying to single you out, your post just fit my reply(agenda) about how PSA is WAY worse on grading cards. Seems to me a some are a little too happy to see the few(so far) bad SGC cards show up.
Believe me I am not happy about any of this. SGC ,PSA, Beckett etc . Just calling it like it is .
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  #45  
Old 06-23-2019, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by bnorth View Post
I talk as much smack as everyone but Ted on how completely incompetent SGC was on autographs.

I wasn't trying to single you out, your post just fit my reply(agenda) about how PSA is WAY worse on grading cards. Seems to me a some are a little too happy to see the few(so far) bad SGC cards show up.
In my estimation, no one should be "happy" that any of the TPGers are as bad at their jobs as the cards outed seem to indicate they are. Disappointed? Yes. Outraged? Maybe, Feel like their trust was betrayed and that they absolutely didn't get what they were promised? OK. People and companies are going to make mistakes. That's inevitable. Its how they respond that matters IMO. That's where the rubber meets the road. Thus far, I have seen nothing that gives me any assurance whatsoever that any of the TPGers are willing to step up and clean up their mess. I guess time will tell, but I am sure not holding my breath.

BTW, when I say "mistake," I am not including PWCC. Mistake implies an accident. As best as I can tell, what PWCC did was not accidental. I sincerely hope that PWCC goes down in flames and that its principals spend time in prison.
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Old 06-23-2019, 02:40 PM
Republicaninmass Republicaninmass is offline
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Thanks Ben! Trying to insult them the best I know how.

I'm not sure what they have done with the other owners of the forged cards. My guess is the auction house reimbursed them, and SGC told the auction houses to go to the FBI, or caved due to the business they send.
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Old 06-23-2019, 02:56 PM
vintagetoppsguy vintagetoppsguy is offline
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Default Incompetence vs stupidity
This talk about SGC authention is ridiculous. How did we go from card doctoring to autograph authentication? But ok, I'll play too. Fine, SGC authenticators are incompetent. But the one thing I can say is at least the "autographs" were wet ink. But how STUPID do you have to be to authenticate a fascimilie autograph?


http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...highlight=Cobb
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Old 06-23-2019, 03:04 PM
Republicaninmass Republicaninmass is offline
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Maybe because it's a response to their "guarantee" which guarantees nothing?

F


F



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Old 06-23-2019, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy View Post
This talk about SGC authention is ridiculous. How did we go from card doctoring to autograph authentication? But ok, I'll play too. Fine, SGC authenticators are incompetent. But the one thing I can say is at least the "autographs" were wet ink. But how STUPID do you have to be to authenticate a fascimilie autograph?


http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...highlight=Cobb
I remember reading where Spence authenticated a facsimile Churchill autograph on a form letter.
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