ethical question

[vintagetoppsguy]

I would not refund the buyer. Here's why and I'll use a similar example.

Let's say you make your living buying and selling cars. You purchase a car through the auto action with the intention to resell it for a profit. A year later, the car has a transmission problem, however the car does have the remainder of it's factory warranty. Do you refund the buyer, or would you expect the buyer to deal with manufacturer? I think the answer is obvious to any logical person.

The buyer of the card should deal with the TPG regarding their guarantee, just as the buyer of the car should deal with the manufacturer regarding the warranty.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I would not refund the buyer. Here's why and I'll use a similar example.

Let's say you make your living buying and selling cars. You purchase a car through the auto action with the intention to resell it for a profit. A year later, the car has a transmission problem, however the car does have the remainder of it's factory warranty. Do you refund the buyer, or would you expect the buyer to deal with manufacturer? I think the answer is obvious to any logical person.

The buyer of the card should deal with the TPG regarding their guarantee, just as the buyer of the car should deal with the manufacturer regarding the warranty.

Suppose the car had a defective transmission when it was sold. Same analysis? Not advocating for any position here, just trying to flesh out the question.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Suppose the car had a defective transmission when it was sold. Same analysis? Not advocating for any position here, just trying to flesh out the question.

Ok, let's assume the car had a bad transmission at the time of sale. Whether the seller really was unaware or did know and just wanted to make a quick buck, the answer is still the same either way. The car has a warranty - a guarantee - and its up to the owner (the new buyer of the car) to resolve warranty issues with the party that makes the warranty (guarantee). This is the way it works in everyday life. I'm not sure why we look at cards differently.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Ok, let's assume the car had a bad transmission at the time of sale. Whether the seller really was unaware or did know and just wanted to make a quick buck, the answer is still the same either way. The car has a warranty - a guarantee - and its up to the owner (the new buyer of the car) to resolve warranty issues with the party that makes the warranty (guarantee). This is the way it works in everyday life. I'm not sure why we look at cards differently.

Does it work that way in real life? There are lemon laws in many states entitling buyers to return defective vehicles.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Does it work that way in real life? There are lemon laws in many states entitling buyers to return defective vehicles.

True, but only after all warranty claims have been exhausted.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

True, but only after all warranty claims have been exhausted.

So the buyer is not at risk -- either the dealer (as agent for the manufacturer) can fix the defect or the buyer gets his or her money back. In this case, by your reasoning, it's all on the buyer, and if the TPG stiffs him on the guarantee he's out of luck.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So the buyer is not at risk -- either the dealer (as agent for the manufacturer) can fix the defect or the buyer gets his or her money back. In this case, by your reasoning, it's all on the buyer, and if the TPG stiffs him on the guarantee he's out of luck.

Yes, exactly. He's out of luck. Sorry, but that IS the way it works. If I sell you a car that's still under factory warranty and it breaks down and the dealership decides they're not going to honor their warranty (and this really does happen more often than you think), that isn't 5he sellers fault that the one that made the warranty isn't going to honor their warranty. That's what a civil lawsuit is for, right? When someone won't honor their guarantee?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

True, but only after all warranty claims have been exhausted.

In other words, you can't go buy a vehicle (new or used) and have the transmission fail 3 months later and say you want your money back based on the Lemon Law. You have to give them a reasonable opportunity to resolve the issue.

Which actually brings me to another point. Let's say you go buy a pre-owned Chevy from the Ford dealership and the vehicle is still under factory warranty. If a problem arises, do you take that Chevy back to the Ford dealership that sold it to you, or do you go to the Chevy dealership - the ones that made the warranty?

The card purchase works the same way.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Same thing with stolen art when seller who bought the item 30 years ago didnt realize the art was stolen 20 years prior to his purchase and changed hands 5 times...

if the original act was criminal it doesnt matter how many times it changed hands..you dont have clean hands defense

you are arguing a clean hands defense basically...if the action is criminal/fraud you dont get that defense...

its unfair burden on victim to track everyone down....of course the seller who just reimbursed the money can now go after the person that sold him the card ..

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

In other words, you can't go buy a vehicle (new or used) and have the transmission fail 3 months later and say you want your money back based on the Lemon Law. You have to give them a reasonable opportunity to resolve the issue.

Which actually brings me to another point. Let's say you go buy a pre-owned Chevy from the Ford dealership and the vehicle is still under factory warranty. If a problem arises, do you take that Chevy back to the Ford dealership that sold it to you, or do you go to the Chevy dealership - the ones that made the warranty?

The card purchase works the same way.

Please tell me how selling used cars has anything to do with selling baseball cards. One is regulated and has very specific laws and the other has none. We so need that face palm emoji.

[Mark17]

Let's say TPG company XYZ grades a card a 4. At that point, that card "becomes" a XYZ 4. So if an innocent person (someone who is unaware of any alterations/fraud) buys it, they have bought a XYZ 4. If they then sell it, they are selling a correctly described XYZ 4.

So the issue later becomes whether or not the TPG should have graded the card a XYZ 4 in the first place. If a mistake was made at that point, that would be where the responsibility lies.

It's similar to any mis-graded card. If a TPG grades a card a 6 when it should've been a 3, that card will still be honestly and ethically bought and sold as a XYZ 6.

My point is, when company XYZ gives a card a grade, that card is then correctly represented as a card with that grade, and no subsequent seller who is unaware of any fraud involving that card has any responsibility for the grade that card was given.

If I buy a graded card from an honest dealer that later turns out to have been altered, I would not ask or expect the seller to accept a return, because he sold me an accurately described card.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Let's say TPG company XYZ grades a card a 4. At that point, that card "becomes" a XYZ 4. So if an innocent person (someone who is unaware of any alterations/fraud) buys it, they have bought a XYZ 4. If they then sell it, they are selling a correctly described XYZ 4.

So the issue later becomes whether or not the TPG should have graded the card a XYZ 4 in the first place. If a mistake was made at that point, that would be where the responsibility lies.

It's similar to any mis-graded card. If a TPG grades a card a 6 when it should've been a 3, that card will still be honestly and ethically bought and sold as a XYZ 6.

My point is, when company XYZ gives a card a grade, that card is then correctly represented as a card with that grade, and no subsequent seller who is unaware of any fraud involving that card has any responsibility for the grade that card was given.

If I buy a graded card from an honest dealer that later turns out to have been altered, I would not ask or expect the seller to accept a return, because he sold me an accurately described card.

Mark, if there were no TPG guarantees, as in the case of a Beckett card, would you feel the same way? I expect you might but just clarifying thanks.

[SMPEP]

There's a variety of scenarios to consider:

First, if you were the original submitter to the TPG, then you absolutely should take the card back no matter what and go after the TPG. You brought the altered card into the hobby by accident. (NOTE: I assume by accident in this case, because let's face it, if you were the person who did the undetected alteration - you're not accepting a return no matter what. You have no honor or ethics and have already demonstrated that.) If you are the original submitter to the TPG though, you have direct claim on the TPG, and the TPG should pay for their mistake. That's who really bears the ultimate responsibility in every case.


If you were a purchaser and then reseller of the card, then I think It's important what you disclosed in the auction.

I've seen a lot of sellers on Ebay say" No returns on graded cards." In that case I think it's fair not to accept the return. You made your policy clear to the buyer. The buyer knew they should rely on the TPG opinion. The buyer knew you would not accept a return. So, they made an fully informed choice on the purchase.

If the seller hasn't stated this policy (and is not within your usual return policy time frame), then that's a gray area. As someone who only buys or sells TPG cards by accident (because they were part of a lot of cards for example), I do not know how to evaluate cards the way a TPG does. As a seller, I would rely that the TPG got it right, and would sell it as such. I would have no idea that it isn't a legitimate grade. I also may not know who I bought that card from, and even if I did, I'd have no way to know if that seller would take the card back. So, in my opinion, I don't think accepting or rejecting the return is CLEARLY right or wrong in this case. I'd say that's up to the individual seller and their conscious and business model.

Cheers,
Patrick