ethical question

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

True, but only after all warranty claims have been exhausted.

In other words, you can't go buy a vehicle (new or used) and have the transmission fail 3 months later and say you want your money back based on the Lemon Law. You have to give them a reasonable opportunity to resolve the issue.

Which actually brings me to another point. Let's say you go buy a pre-owned Chevy from the Ford dealership and the vehicle is still under factory warranty. If a problem arises, do you take that Chevy back to the Ford dealership that sold it to you, or do you go to the Chevy dealership - the ones that made the warranty?

The card purchase works the same way.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Same thing with stolen art when seller who bought the item 30 years ago didnt realize the art was stolen 20 years prior to his purchase and changed hands 5 times...

if the original act was criminal it doesnt matter how many times it changed hands..you dont have clean hands defense

you are arguing a clean hands defense basically...if the action is criminal/fraud you dont get that defense...

its unfair burden on victim to track everyone down....of course the seller who just reimbursed the money can now go after the person that sold him the card ..

[drcy]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Same thing with stolen art when seller who bought the item 30 years ago didnt realize the art was stolen 20 years prior to his purchase and changed hands 5 times...

if the original act was criminal it doesnt matter how many times it changed hands..you dont have clean hands defense

you are arguing a clean hands defense basically...if the action is criminal/fraud you dont get that defense...

its unfair burden on victim to track everyone down....of course the seller who just reimbursed the money can now go after the person that sold him the card ..

That's a different situation because seller (and and buyer) never legally owned the item. There never was a legal sale.

My opinion is there are different ways of handling the OP's question. If you wanted to refund it you can, but it is also fair to tell the buyer to the TPA. For better or worse, the TPA has set themselves up as guaranteer. Unlike some situations, I don't think one choice is more or less ethical than the other.

Though I've never been keen on auction houses that use the TPA to wash their hands of the issue. Auctions houses are supposed to be experts too.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

In other words, you can't go buy a vehicle (new or used) and have the transmission fail 3 months later and say you want your money back based on the Lemon Law. You have to give them a reasonable opportunity to resolve the issue.

Which actually brings me to another point. Let's say you go buy a pre-owned Chevy from the Ford dealership and the vehicle is still under factory warranty. If a problem arises, do you take that Chevy back to the Ford dealership that sold it to you, or do you go to the Chevy dealership - the ones that made the warranty?

The card purchase works the same way.

Please tell me how selling used cars has anything to do with selling baseball cards. One is regulated and has very specific laws and the other has none. We so need that face palm emoji.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Please tell me how selling used cars has anything to do with selling baseball cards. One is regulated and has very specific laws and the other has none. We so need that face palm emoji.

Thanks Ben, I am so SICK of CAR ANALOGIES. It's Re-TARDED already.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

Thanks Ben, I am so SICK of CAR ANALOGIES. It's Re-TARDED already.

It doesn't matter what analogy you use, you either get it or you don't. You obviously don't, so I'll try one more time. Let's say Im selling a TV on Craigslist and you're the buyer. The TV was purchased at Best Buy 2 years ago and has a 5 year transferable warranty. Upon completion of the sale, I give you all the paperwork and the receipt from Best Buy in the event you need it for a warranty claim. The TV works great for a couple years, but suddenly goes out. Lucky for you, you still have a year left on the warranty. Are you going to call me since I sold it to you, or are you going to deal with Best Buy? This really isn't about a car, a card, a TV or anything else. It's really about understanding how warranties work. Like I said, you either get it or you don't.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

It doesn't matter what analogy you use, you either get it or you don't. You obviously don't, so I'll try one more time. Let's say Im selling a TV on Craigslist and you're the buyer. The TV was purchased at Best Buy 2 years ago and has a 5 year transferable warranty. Upon completion of the sale, I give you all the paperwork and the receipt from Best Buy in the event you need it for a warranty claim. The TV works great for a couple years, but suddenly goes out. Lucky for you, you still have a year left on the warranty. Are you going to call me since I sold it to you, or are you going to deal with Best Buy? This really isn't about a car, a card, a TV or anything else. It's really about understanding how warranties work. Like I said, you either get it or you don't.

David -- same facts as in my not-so-hypothetical, but now it's a Beckett card that's just been outed as altered. Does the dealer have to take it back?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

David -- same facts as in my not-so-hypothetical, but now it's a Beckett card that's just been outed as altered. Does the dealer have to take it back?

Peter, I honestly dont know what Beckett's guarantee is...or if they even have one. If they have a guarantee, the buyer should take it up with Beckett. If they don't have a guarantee then, as a seller, I would probably refund the money.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Peter, I honestly dont know what Beckett's guarantee is...or if they even have one. If they have a guarantee, the buyer should take it up with Beckett. If they don't have a guarantee then, as a seller, I would probably refund the money.

They don't have one.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Please tell me how selling used cars has anything to do with selling baseball cards. One is regulated and has very specific laws and the other has none. We so need that face palm emoji.

It's similar in that they both offer a guarantee and in the event of a claim, you deal with the company that makes the guarantee.

Yes face palm emoji definitely needed.

[jhs5120]

A similar situation has happened to me.

I bought a Ted Williams signed index card from Heritage (part of a lot), it was pre-certified by PSA. I sent the index card to PSA to encapsulate and they determined it was a fake. I went to PSA to refund me the purchase price, they did, and then ripped up the card.

To me, it's TPG first, seller second.

You're buying an item with a warranty. If it's defective, exercise the warranty. That's why it's there.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

A similar situation has happened to me.

I bought a Ted Williams signed index card from Heritage (part of a lot), it was pre-certified by PSA. I sent the index card to PSA to encapsulate and they determined it was a fake. I went to PSA to refund me the purchase price, they did, and then ripped up the card.

To me, it's TPG first, seller second.

You're buying an item with a warranty. If it's defective, exercise the warranty. That's why it's there.

So why is Steve Sloan telling people with altered cards to contact the seller and only to contact PSA if the seller is "unknown"? I guess he would disagree with you?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So why is Steve Sloan telling people with altered cards to contact the seller and only to contact PSA if the seller is "unknown"? I guess he would disagree with you?

Is this a serious question? I think you know the answer to that?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Is this a serious question? I think you know the answer to that?

Yes, it was a sarcastic swipe at Sloan, although as this thread illustrates it's a complex issue. In any case, even under my view of the seller's responsibility, PSA ends up having to make good on the guarantee unless the seller is the submitter.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So why is Steve Sloan telling people with altered cards to contact the seller and only to contact PSA if the seller is "unknown"? I guess he would disagree with you?

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Is this a serious question? I think you know the answer to that?

LOL, gotta agree with David on this one. There is no way that was a serious question.

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So why is Steve Sloan telling people with altered cards to contact the seller and only to contact PSA if the seller is "unknown"? I guess he would disagree with you?

You're asking me why a warranty service is trying to avoid people from exercising their warranty?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

You're asking me why a warranty service is trying to avoid people from exercising their warranty?

See prior post, it was a swipe at Sloan's missive.

[griffon512]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So why is Steve Sloan telling people with altered cards to contact the seller and only to contact PSA if the seller is "unknown"? I guess he would disagree with you?

Steve Sloan is making a business decision. You're asking an ethical question. How often do the two overlap?

[Promethius88]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth -So why is Steve Sloan telling people with altered cards to contact the seller and only to contact PSA if the seller is "unknown"? I guess he would disagree with you?[
QUOTE=griffon512;1898627]Steve Sloan is making a business decision. You're asking an ethical question. How often do the two overlap?[/QUOTE]

This is simple, in my eyes and I've explained it before. Yes, 100% a business decision and they know they will be most likely be paying out a lot in the future. They are tying to minimize that amount now. They know the majority of these cards were sold by one particular entity which appears to possibly be involved in the fraudulent activities. PSA does NOT have to refund to the original submitter in certain situations as was noted in one of the other 50 threads on this issue. Send the cards back to the seller then they don't have to refund them if they send back to PSA. Love them, hate them....whatever, but it is the smartest way to limit their economic exposure.