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#1
07-26-2019, 02:13 PM
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A lot of theories out there on this board with very little research.
Orlando (Joseph J.) Chief Executive Officer D -19,465 Sale 14.39 -0.28 03-Jul-2018 4 21,314 21,314 Here is a sale from Joe last year at this time. The stock is nearly nine points higher and this sale would have resulted in over $172,000 more funds for him. These are stock option related sales. Here is the recent one. Orlando (Joseph J.) Chief Executive Officer D -5,326 Sale 21.89 -0.12 01-Jul-2019 4 28,780 28,780 So what is your theory on why he didn't sell them all? Orlando (Joseph J.) Chief Executive Officer D 12,792 Acquisition 0.00 0.00 24-Sep-2018 4 34,106 34,106 The hatred for PSA seems to completely cloud rational thought process here. 
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#2
07-26-2019, 02:57 PM
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https://www.psacard.com/articles/art...-retrospective
If you want to see Joe O's full response, then click the above link. Joe is speaking very broadly here. If I was someone who didn't know anything about this scandal, and I were to read his post, I would still not know anything about it. He states how a lot of individuals do nothing but complain about the errors TPGs make and provide no logical solutions on making it better. Furthermore, he states that "their expectation of human-based opinion services is simply unattainable." I just feel that a lot of these trimmed cards that were outed on the Blowout Forums were not measured. Don't graders have some measuring devices on their desks? How often do they use them and how long does it take to measure a card? Is that asking for a lot? His conclusion was the worst part. He states that "there will also be those who choose to spread fear and ignorance." It's called awareness, Mr. Orlando. Those guys over at the Blowout Forums have made me aware of this problem, and now I am very careful about what I buy and that's a good thing, no? I'm not going to stop purchasing PSA graded cards, and from time-to-time I will submit my cards in for grading as well, but like most people on here, I'm just very disappointed in the way PSA handled this whole thing.
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#3
07-26-2019, 03:00 PM
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Who is Darren Rovell, the next up and coming Keith Olbermann with less collector knowledge and even less fan base? Sorry if I should know who he is, but seems like another "contributor". I guess it adds more eyes to the story
__________________
"Trolling Ebay right now" © Always looking for signed 1952 topps as well as variations and errors
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#4
07-26-2019, 03:20 PM
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"contributor." Of course, a simple Google search could have answered your question.
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#5
07-26-2019, 03:25 PM
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I thought he did a nice job of presenting a lot of material in a coherent and organized way.
__________________
Four phrases I have coined that sum up today's hobby: No consequences. Stuff trumps all. The flip is the commoodity. Animal Farm grading.
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#6
07-26-2019, 03:37 PM
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Has anyone heard if any members of the media, local or national are going to be doing a piece from the National on the scandal ? IBD would seem like a good fit......exposing the market manipulation
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#7
07-26-2019, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
__________________
"Trolling Ebay right now" © Always looking for signed 1952 topps as well as variations and errors
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#8
07-26-2019, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
__________________
Four phrases I have coined that sum up today's hobby: No consequences. Stuff trumps all. The flip is the commoodity. Animal Farm grading.
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#9
07-26-2019, 04:18 PM
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Bob,
That is a very informative and well thought out post. The biggest obstacle I see to implementing what you are outlining is a conceptual one -- collecting by its nature is subjective. Therefore, the notion of having some universal objective grading standard that all TPGs would be bound to follow strikes me as being inconsistent with why people collect in the first place -- personal enjoyment. One person's 8 could be another person's 3, and vice versa. In my ideal grading world, the sole purpose of a TPG is to opine if the card is genuine and what, if anything, has been done to it. There would be no numerical grades. At that point, armed with that information, a prospective purchaser can decide how much he/she is willing to pay. In regard to the concern as to how PSA can be found to be liable under their guaranty if the grade is nothing more than an opinion, I don't think they will be that easily let off the hook. I believe if litigated a court would rule in such a way that would give economic substance to the guaranty, which would not be the case if all PSA has to say they in good faith stand by their original grade. PSA charges up to $5K to grade certain cards, and for that money I can't imagine they would not have a lot of explaining to do if a numerically graded card is objectively found to be altered. This then raises the question how can one objectively determine alteration and thereby meet the legal standard of proof if one cannot remove it from the slab without voiding the guaranty? I can think of at least two ways -- (1) certain trimmed borders when magnified will show sufficiently clear differences when contrasted with untrimmed borders to persuade a trier of fact that the initial grade was incorrect; (2) Removing the card from the slab under appropriate video recorded supervision, which could then permit a scientific analysis of the borders to determine if they exhibit chemical characteristics indicative of recent exposure to the atmosphere (i.e., they were trimmed). I suspect other scientific tests could also be performed to detect other alterations (e.g., addition of coloring, chemical cleaning). PSA of course will argue that the removal from the slab voids the guaranty. Given the extreme difficulty/impossibility of proving alteration by leaving the card in the slab, coupled with using the video recording to establish to the court's satisfaction that the alteration did not occur after the removal (thereby addressing the concern behind the prohibition against removal), I believe there is a real shot a court would rule the guaranty is not voided. That to me is the biggest risk PSA faces -- being wiped out financially, as I believe their contingent liability grossly exceeds their capability to absorb it. Last edited by benjulmag; 07-26-2019 at 04:20 PM.
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#10
07-26-2019, 10:21 PM
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Quote:
You are absolutely right, too many people have too many different ideas on what should be what. I said one of the main problems would be getting everyone to actually agree on a single set of standards and then trying to get everyone to follow it. Your thoughts about having TPGs merely authentic a card and then leaving it to collectors to decide what shape it is in makes the best sense to me also. Unfortunately too many people that have gotten into cards view them not just as hobby collectibles, but as investments that they hope continue to rise in value. And that is the inherent problem when you get a hobby where some are in it for fun and to collect, whereas others are in it for business and profit. Because of the people that are in it for potential investment/profit, you end up needing to keep some grading system in place because unlike artwork where each piece is an original one-of-one, there can be hundreds or thousands of a particular card and the grading is what can differentiate a rare, almost perfect condition card from a similar one in just VG shape. And therein because of that condition rarity is where the perceived increase in value comes from, at least to a pretty good majority of card collectors. And because of the financial/investment side of the hobby that exists, having an agreed upon, single set of standards would make it easier for people to relate and compare graded cards across the board. Because of the perceived differences in some TPGs to others, and the effect they can have on a card's value, we already have it now where people just pay more or less for cards of supposedly similar grades solely based on who graded it. How many threads and discussions have there been about how say a PSA 6 of a certain card will always bring more money than that same exact card in a comparable SGC or BGS 6 holder? If you can get a collector group/organization to agree upon and then enforce a single set of standards, and force the TPGs to follow it, there would be a benefit for both true hobby collectors as well as those in it more for the business/investment aspect. You would get graded cards to be uniform and comparable across all grading companies and this could help to eliminate the inconsistencies among graded cards and perceived values. You could also have the hobby/collecting group become the party that keeps track of the graded cards across the entire hobby and not just have certain TPGs set up their own registry. That way all collectors could have their graded cards registered and tracked by that one collecting group, and include all graded cards regardless of the TPG. The collecting group would then require the TPGs as part of what they would have to do to continue to be a licensed grading company, to share with them information about all newly graded cards so there would be a single unified registry that all members of the collecting community could access and use. One of the benefits would be that if someone went to crossover a graded card from one TPG to another that the TPG doing the re-grade would be required to inform the collecting group registry the information as to what holder they took the card from, and what holder they now put it into. The registry group could then remove the old, broken-out graded card from the registry and replace it with information of the new, regraded one. That way the people in the hobby would be able to have a better idea of how many of a particular card are actually graded and in existence. It would also help to make it easier to track graded cards, especially if as part of such an overall hobby group run registry the TPGs were also required to supply images of cards they are grading as well for comparative purposes. With a registry and database like that you could watch what is happening to cards a lot better than it is now. Of course someone could still just break a card out of a holder and not tell anyone, and there is also the problem of how do you get all of the graded cards that are already out there into such a registry to make it more valuable and meaningful. While nothing is perfect or foolproof, it could help to cut down on the abuses and shenanigans of card doctors because there would be one source and data base you could watch and better track graded cards from. In a more perfect world, that would have been something to have started out with from the beginning of the graded card era. Now it may be too little, too late to try and impose such a group to oversee and change the hobby and how it functions.
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#11
07-27-2019, 06:13 AM
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Bob,
I hear you and I suppose if the objective is to address the concerns of those who are in this hobby not for the pleasure but instead for the investment potential, what you are proposing can't hurt. That said, IMO the bigger problem which still needs to be addressed is that the current business model of grading cards (reliance on visual inspection) is outdated and cannot keep up with the advances in altering and counterfeiting, much the same way police radar devices soon become obsolete once the latest radar detector hits the market. So even if there was a unified grading system all could agree on, that still doesn't mean there will be any reduction in altered cards receiving numerical grades. What I like most about your proposal is the idea of a single unified registry. It is the PSA set registry that causes PSA cards to sell at higher prices than identically graded cards from another TPG. It would not surprise me if polled a majority of knowledgeable collectors would rate SGC as having better graders, but those same people would still want their cards slabbed by PSA because the cards would fetch higher prices. In another thread there was a discussion of forcing PSA to include other TPGs in its set registry. Among the comments to that idea was the firm view that it would be met with howling resistance from many well-heeled collectors who believe much of the value and prestige of their collections reside in their place in the PSA registry. Last edited by benjulmag; 07-27-2019 at 07:23 AM.
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#12
07-29-2019, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Corey, I'm with you. There has got to be a better way to look at and grade/authenticate these cards, and to pay attention to alterations and such to them. With all the advances in technology and computers and so on, you would think someone could come up with a slightly more automated way to view and assess these cards than someone just spending a minute or two at most in looking at them. The human error factor is too great and allows for too many errors and mistakes, even without the altered cards that are being pushed through the system. Again, the idea of having a single, hobby collecting group that runs things and sets standards, including the licensing of TPGs to do grading, would also include standardized testing and procedures all the TPGs would/should have to be doing, at a minimum, in looking at and authenticating cards, as well as the grading of them. I'm not just talking about a hobby/collecting group setting single grading standards for the TPGs, but also establishing rules for how they do their work and what efforts, procedures and such they need to perform. The TPGs need to be transparent in what they do and how they do it, and also need to have some centralized rules to follow. Same thing goes for the actual graders. Who exactly certifies them as "experts", and what exactly did those so-called experts do or learn to get such a designation? As best as I can tell, the TPGs hire people with some card knowledge and then teach them what they want them to look for and do in grading and authentication. I may be wrong, but that sure seems to be how they work things now. I would also have the hobby/collecting group be the one to set the standards for determining and licensing card graders, and not leave that to the individual TPGs to just hire and train whomever they want either. I also find it quite fascinating that throughout this thread, different people have criticized the Rovell article author about his putting out ideas and such to stir people up and sensationalize the issue with his supposed unfounded opinions and ideas. If that is all a lot of people responding to this thread are getting out of this article, they really aren't doing a good job of reading and comprehending everything that is being said in it. What most amazes me is that no one else seems to have picked up on that one quote from Joe Orlando's letter to his customers that was included in the article where he basically chastises people in the hobby for just complaining about things and trying to blame others (ie: PSA) for these problems. He calls them out and sort of insinuates they are more or less a fraction of the people in the overall hobby community who are just whining and complaining, and don't offer any solutions or ways to make things better. And then even more over the top was the follow-up quote from his letter where it states, "Their expectation of human-based opinion services is simply unattainable." I wonder how many people who actually read that article really paid attention to that line, and nearly choked while reading it?!?!? Talk about insulting people in the hobby and putting them down! He more or less just dismissed everyone who is bringing up these these issues and their concerns and questioning PSA's part in it by not being able to detect the alterations, deflecting any guilt or liability on PSA's part, and basically saying that unless you people have a better idea on how to do things, stop complaining and whining!!! And I don't know about everyone else, but I thought the reason and expectations of buying a card that is graded by a TPG is that the card itself is authentic, and it is properly graded, including the identification of doctoring or alterations and the reflection of such work done on a card to its grade. And that following such a review and grading process, the card is then encapsulated in a tamper resistant holder for protection and given a unique identifying number for identification purposes. If those expectations of people in the hobby are simply unattainable, then what exactly in his mind is the purpose of a TPG company in reviewing and grading cards and what is attainable??? And notice he specifically used the phrase "human-based opinion services" to accentuate the fact that PSA only gives someone's opinion, and that it only a human opinion and therefore subject to typical human error. I've only been hearing about how people have been taking their altered/doctored cards back to PWCC to receive refunds. Has anyone actually started or tried taking their PSA graded cards that have been shown to be doctored and/or altered back to PSA yet? And if so, what was the result, are they getting the chance to either have PSA buy back the card, or refund the difference between the incorrect and correct grades? People may be opting to just go to PWCC because they seem to be refunding people's money without too much, if any, hassle. But that just possibly play's into PSA's hands by not subjecting them to their possible warranty guarantee and doesn't give them any financial responsibility. Unless of course after refunding people's money PWCC is then taking the cards they now own back to PSA for the warranty guarantee themselves. That is probably why some people have speculated and made suggestions that they think PSA may be working with PWCC in funding them for these refunds PWCC is making. Or does PWCC then try going back to the people that consigned the card's to them originally to get back the money they received for them. I guess at the end of the day it would be nice to know what happens to these altered cards. For all we know, they could end up in someone else's hands out there and be sold to an unsuspecting and unknowing collector. Or they could be sent back to a TPG for proper grading as altered/authentic. I would hate to think they would end up being destroyed by someone as they are still actual, authentic cards, but who knows for certain what is happening to them?
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#13
07-29-2019, 05:20 PM
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There is a whole thread on Blowout critical of Joe Orlando's column.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1308245 The problem with technology being added to the process is the additional timeline and cost. IMO, you can't add it only to higher level submissions. It has to be all or nothing. A major part of this issue is the submitter slipping high dollar cards in bulk submissions so they'd be graded by less experienced (theoretically) graders. Plus, you can't have a split registry concept where only high value or high grade cards are properly authenticated for one "vetted" registry, and everything else in an "unvetted" registry. A registry divided across itself cannot stand. So if PSA or Beckett or SGC now have to charge a minimum of $25 to grade any card, will people still submit cards? Will PSA Set Registry collecting die or decrease? People have already howled about bulk submissions going from $5.50 a card or so to $8/ea in the past three years.
__________________
-- PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head PSA: Regularly Get Cheated BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern SGC: Closed auto authentication business JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC Oh, what a difference a year makes.
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#14
07-29-2019, 06:05 PM
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NO we responded to BS posts like this. Oh, and the other comments in that Rovell article about the significant sales of stock by the PSA CEO are factual statements. As a publicly traded company, in accordance with SEC rules, they have to report such significant sales of a company's stock by their owners/officers to be fair to the investing public and so they can't supposedly take advantage of insider knowledge to the detriment of investors at large. Collector's Universe, though actually a very small company in relation to most publicly traded companies, had recently been added to the Russell 2000 index, which an investor would normally see as a positive sign for the business and would likely help to see that stock going up in price. The fact that a main officer of that same company would then be selling off a significant portion of their stock could simply be him/her taking advantage of a recent price rise and pulling some profits off the table, or they could have had some recent personal cash needs that prompted them to sell part of their ownership to fund the cash need. Of course, if there was also some potential bad financial news coming down the road that they were aware of that could negatively affect the company's stock price, they may be selling so as to cash out as much as they could and cut their losses before the bad financial news becomes mainstream public knowledge and the stock price takes a serious hit. I'll give all of you three guesses as to the possible motivation for Mr. Orlando's sales of his stock in CU, and the first two guesses don't count!!! You seem like a well informed person. I am surprised you would make this post without attempting to check facts. I confirmed with Joe that this was indeed a cashless stock option exercise. He has not sold a single share above the amount needed to pay the taxes and take delivery of the remaining shares. Nice try but you completely failed.
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#15
07-26-2019, 07:00 PM
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#16
07-26-2019, 07:26 PM
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People should look stuff up before they make wild accusations. There is no downside to saying the stuff because a lot of people want to believe it and quickly get out the pitchforks.
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#17
07-26-2019, 07:31 PM
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#18
07-26-2019, 07:36 PM
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#19
07-26-2019, 07:45 PM
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He was on CNBC for a few years so I was very familiar with him. It makes sense why he wants to go after people.
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#20
07-26-2019, 08:02 PM
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I think it is an excellent article. Well written, very informative, and unafraid to name names and call out rolls/involvement. It is a little biased toward the collectors and makes some harsh statements, but I welcome that. It’s about time we had a stronger voice. Good work Darren Rovell- keep writing!
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#21
07-26-2019, 08:14 PM
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#22
07-26-2019, 08:29 PM
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Joe Orlando in reality has never owned a ton of stock. In many cases when someone exercises options they sell enough to pay for the taxes to keep the remaining shares. I can't say for certain but that is what it looks like took place recently. It also appears he was at the mercy of the market a year ago when their stock was down because of their coin division and he was forced to leave a nice chunk of money on the table with that sale. If someone wanted to evaluate whether or not insiders were selling they should watch the CFO who has a much larger share position and his sale was just over 1% of his holdings. These sales were clearly planned with the exact timing of last years sales so I wouldn't read anything into it one way or another. These guys are not Carl Icahn and aren't totally swimming in money so it is natural to see some selling and increase in current share count at the same time.
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#23
07-26-2019, 08:32 PM
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Dave I haven't looked at the filings but maybe you have, does he actually have a 10b5-1 trading plan in place? If so then it means less than nothing.
__________________
Four phrases I have coined that sum up today's hobby: No consequences. Stuff trumps all. The flip is the commoodity. Animal Farm grading.
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#24
07-26-2019, 08:41 PM
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David Hall did and for quite some time he was making planned sales and you could see the pattern. For those that don't know this means you must sell shares consistently at a specified date regardless of price. His holdings have actually increased by just over 20k shares in his last filing so he has stopped selling. All one must do is look at the insider data and they will see what has happened here. Joe was either paying for taxes to keep the shares or selling a few for some other reason but neither could in any capacity be viewed as nefarious. This was added to the story for shock and awe and it worked. It just wasn't true.
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#25
07-26-2019, 08:49 PM
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I'm glad I have very few graded cards to present at the National. I have usually sold 95 % raw material.
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