Outed cards, now including a 130K gain on an Aaron rookie

Peter_Spaeth · #1 11-23-2019, 08:17 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KthnmVDnEEs

Leon · #2 11-23-2019, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KthnmVDnEEs

I am considering a new thread with this video as the first post. It is another eye opener. Kudos to the BODA team over there. (*again) . My guess is the FBI will get to the bottom of it and in the end some fraudulent people/companies will be held accountable. It won't be quick but it will be thorough.

Peter_Spaeth · #3 11-23-2019, 09:31 AM

How does the Hendrix song go? If 6 was 9 I don't mind I don't mind.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=6028

Rhotchkiss · #4 11-23-2019, 09:52 AM

Leon, that would be a great thread. It would be even better if there was constructive discussion and the usual angry responders didn�t chime in with the same, obvious drivel that they post time and again (I imagine that for me, half the thread�s responses will be blanked out thanks to my ignore user list).

Anyway, I think it could make for a great thread.

Meanwhile, does anyone know how to get ahold of the guy who the made video? If so, can you pm me contact info - I would like to encourage that person to please continue and posting those videos.

swarmee · #5 11-23-2019, 09:59 AM

He just posted on Blowout in the thread. So you can find him there.

Peter_Spaeth · #6 11-23-2019, 10:14 AM

So here's a question for discussion -- what, if anything, are people doing differently in light of the scandal? How are you attempting to protect yourself against altered cards?

Leon · #7 11-23-2019, 11:40 AM

I am passing on my favorite card in the hobby in a 7 holder because of f'd up looking top and bottom borders. As Scott B and I just spoke about at a local card show, KNOW the cards and their characteristics. If it looks short with pointy borders, even if in a TPG holder, pass. SO the lesson is KNOW your cards and its series characteristics. IF you see an E220 with almost no borders, it is trimmed...tpg or not. Same with others. If you see 2 (or more) short borders and especially if they are pointy cornered cards....run away and fast.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So here's a question for discussion -- what, if anything, are people doing differently in light of the scandal? How are you attempting to protect yourself against altered cards?

Exhibitman · #8 11-24-2019, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So here's a question for discussion -- what, if anything, are people doing differently in light of the scandal? How are you attempting to protect yourself against altered cards?

That's a good question. One thing I am thinking on is provenance. Most of my slabs are self-submitted cards and I am preserving the records of those submissions for future resale. Art is often tracked through its owners, so why not top cards? We already have provenance of specific finds on flips (e.g., Black Swamp, Lionel Carter, etc.). That should be more common. If I know the submitter as trustworthy, that should provide a great deal of confidence.

Peter_Spaeth · #9 11-24-2019, 01:30 PM

My own system (for PSA cards anyhow) makes me wonder if it's even worth it, it's such a PITA.

1. If offered by certain sellers, stop right there.
2. If serial number on PSA website shows first sale by certain sellers, stop right there.
3. Review scan thoroughly and if any doubt, pass.
4. If significant card, ask a couple of people whose opinions I value.
5. If still in the game at that point, check my spreadsheet of outed cards to see if in range suggesting it's likely from the same sub. If yes, probably stop or at least look into surrounding certs for anything suspicious.
6. Even if not in range of any outed card, if significant card, check surrounding certs for anything suspicious.

Ridiculous it's come to this.

T206Collector · #10 11-24-2019, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So here's a question for discussion -- what, if anything, are people doing differently in light of the scandal? How are you attempting to protect yourself against altered cards?

Buying raw, low grade. Doing my own research on provenance. Since May have stopped buying graded cards, except low grade and low value, unless there is collection provenance. Won’t collect based on TPG card grade again until someone builds a better mousetrap, including transparency and traceability.

SOX75 · #11 11-23-2019, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Meanwhile, does anyone know how to get ahold of the guy who the made video? If so, can you pm me contact info - I would like to encourage that person to please continue and posting those videos.

Hi, that would be me. I'm on this board, but don't post very often. I've appreciated reading the dialogue and learning about how these altered cards are discovered. You can PM me here if you'd like to talk more. I do plan on continuing to make these videos, but they are obviously very time intensive and difficult to balance with the rest of my life. The support the previous videos have gotten has been encouraging me to continue.

Keith

perezfan · #12 11-23-2019, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SOX75

Hi, that would be me. I'm on this board, but don't post very often. I've appreciated reading the dialogue and learning about how these altered cards are discovered. You can PM me here if you'd like to talk more. I do plan on continuing to make these videos, but they are obviously very time intensive and difficult to balance with the rest of my life. The support the previous videos have gotten has been encouraging me to continue.

Keith

Thank you Keith, for creating that great video. We have been saying for months now, that less than 2% of consumers are even aware of the scandal, fraud, deception and corruption. It's the biggest scandal ever to rock the hobby, and no one knows about it! Your video will provide much needed help to spread the word.

Please keep the videos coming if at all possible. There is so much more to expose. Just today, a large batch of new altered PSA high-numbered examples were outed on Blowout... and this isn't slowing down anytime soon. Still just the tip of the iceberg.

Thanks again for the great work being done by the people on Blowout, and by yourself!

Leon · #13 11-23-2019, 11:41 AM

Thank you very much!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by SOX75

Hi, that would be me. I'm on this board, but don't post very often. I've appreciated reading the dialogue and learning about how these altered cards are discovered. You can PM me here if you'd like to talk more. I do plan on continuing to make these videos, but they are obviously very time intensive and difficult to balance with the rest of my life. The support the previous videos have gotten has been encouraging me to continue.

Keith

Peter_Spaeth · #14 11-23-2019, 12:35 PM

LOL that's a big slice.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...2&postcount=86

Keep denying, Orlando and Sloan.

perezfan · #15 11-23-2019, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

LOL that's a big slice.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...2&postcount=86

Keep denying, Orlando and Sloan.

And a pretty big profit...

The uglier altered version sold for 42 X the price of the original.

Rhotchkiss · #16 11-23-2019, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SOX75

Hi, that would be me. I'm on this board, but don't post very often. I've appreciated reading the dialogue and learning about how these altered cards are discovered. You can PM me here if you'd like to talk more. I do plan on continuing to make these videos, but they are obviously very time intensive and difficult to balance with the rest of my life. The support the previous videos have gotten has been encouraging me to continue.

Keith

Hi Keith. Thanks for the reply and nice to meet you. I am out and about, but will PM you later. I really appreciate your videos and think they are a great service to our hobby - your videos and the work by BODA are/is important. I would like to help anyway I can.

Ryan

Fuddjcal · #17 11-23-2019, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SOX75

Hi, that would be me. I'm on this board, but don't post very often. I've appreciated reading the dialogue and learning about how these altered cards are discovered. You can PM me here if you'd like to talk more. I do plan on continuing to make these videos, but they are obviously very time intensive and difficult to balance with the rest of my life. The support the previous videos have gotten has been encouraging me to continue.

Keith

Thanks Keith for the GREAT Videos (Trimming scandal for dummies).

Much appreciate the style and content of your videos. THANKS!

samosa4u · #18 11-23-2019, 01:17 PM

I love your videos, Keith. You get directly to the point and I find them very easy to follow.

I will send you a PM later today.

Johnny630 · #19 11-23-2019, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SOX75

Hi, that would be me. I'm on this board, but don't post very often. I've appreciated reading the dialogue and learning about how these altered cards are discovered. You can PM me here if you'd like to talk more. I do plan on continuing to make these videos, but they are obviously very time intensive and difficult to balance with the rest of my life. The support the previous videos have gotten has been encouraging me to continue.

Keith

Keith thank you for the excellent work sir :-) as always keep up the good fight sir. Happy Thanksgiving I to your and your family.

Johnny630 · #20 11-23-2019, 02:33 PM

Keith respectfully is there anyway and or interest in setting up at all the major card shows across this great country with these videos and the blowout discoveries threads posted on large computer screens above said table/booth ?

Thanks

1952boyntoncollector · #21 11-23-2019, 04:11 PM

Nice Keith, glad to see we both are looking out for the hobby..

maraca cards...

CuriousGeorge · #22 11-23-2019, 09:18 PM

An absolutely incredible job! It is amazing the time and effort you put into this and I believe this will be very helpful to many people. Thank you very much!

Quote:

Originally Posted by SOX75

Hi, that would be me. I'm on this board, but don't post very often. I've appreciated reading the dialogue and learning about how these altered cards are discovered. You can PM me here if you'd like to talk more. I do plan on continuing to make these videos, but they are obviously very time intensive and difficult to balance with the rest of my life. The support the previous videos have gotten has been encouraging me to continue.

Keith

tribefan · #23 11-23-2019, 10:23 PM

Great job on the video!

Fuddjcal · #24 11-23-2019, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Leon, that would be a great thread. It would be even better if there was constructive discussion and the usual angry responders didn�t chime in with the same, obvious drivel that they post time and again (I imagine that for me, half the thread�s responses will be blanked out thanks to my ignore user list).

Anyway, I think it could make for a great thread.

Meanwhile, does anyone know how to get ahold of the guy who the made video? If so, can you pm me contact info - I would like to encourage that person to please continue and posting those videos.

LOL, ya know I'll make an Angry comment...cause I'm actually angry about it..

Fuddjcal · #25 11-23-2019, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KthnmVDnEEs

Nice link! Thanks my handsome friend

SOX75 · #26 11-23-2019, 06:58 PM

Thanks for the warm welcome guys...sincerely appreciate it! I've been working on videos on the trimming and altering fraud for months and plan to continue. There are times when I am stuck because of a lack of knowledge about the Hobby and it would be helpful to have some help from the users here during those moments. Thanks again!

Johnny630 · #27 11-23-2019, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SOX75

Thanks for the warm welcome guys...sincerely appreciate it! I've been working on videos on the trimming and altering fraud for months and plan to continue. There are times when I am stuck because of a lack of knowledge about the Hobby and it would be helpful to have some help from the users here during those moments. Thanks again!

Feel free to private message me anytime you would like.

Thank You

benjulmag · #28 11-24-2019, 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SOX75

Thanks for the warm welcome guys...sincerely appreciate it! I've been working on videos on the trimming and altering fraud for months and plan to continue. There are times when I am stuck because of a lack of knowledge about the Hobby and it would be helpful to have some help from the users here during those moments. Thanks again!

That truly is an outstanding piece of investigative reporting, with staggering implications, both from a civil and criminal perspective. Presumably the FBI has been alerted to your video.

This Board has lamented on the apparent lack of knowledge of this scandal by the general collecting public, and has theorized what significantly increased public knowledge might have on the market value of high grade PSA-slabbed cards. Have you ever considered reaching out to 60 minutes or some similar journalistic outlet about this matter? If a national news company was to air your video, augmented by additional reporting, that could generate public exposure of sufficient magnitude to be a catalyst to significantly advance the weeding out this fraud and bringing to justice those involved.

1952boyntoncollector · #29 11-24-2019, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by benjulmag

That truly is an outstanding piece of investigative reporting, with staggering implications, both from a civil and criminal perspective. Presumably the FBI has been alerted to your video.

This Board has lamented on the apparent lack of knowledge of this scandal by the general collecting public, and has theorized what significantly increased public knowledge might have on the market value of high grade PSA-slabbed cards. Have you ever considered reaching out to 60 minutes or some similar journalistic outlet about this matter? If a national news company was to air your video, augmented by additional reporting, that could generate public exposure of sufficient magnitude to be a catalyst to significantly advance the weeding out this fraud and bringing to justice those involved.

so far no implications from the civil perspective considering how this has rocked the hobby as some have said. All we hear about is FBI this and that. Videos like yours should help the cause

We should have a Mt. Rushmore for Maraca cards..with a mexican theme....maybe use famous mexican moutain range..

WhenItWasAHobby · #30 11-24-2019, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SOX75

Thanks for the warm welcome guys...sincerely appreciate it! I've been working on videos on the trimming and altering fraud for months and plan to continue. There are times when I am stuck because of a lack of knowledge about the Hobby and it would be helpful to have some help from the users here during those moments. Thanks again!

Impressive video Keith! Keep up the great work!

Peter_Spaeth · #31 11-24-2019, 10:41 AM

I gave up on trying to make a pun using Cheevers.

Presented without comment.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...7&postcount=27

1952boyntoncollector · #32 11-24-2019, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I gave up on trying to make a pun using Cheevers.

Presented without comment.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...7&postcount=27

The way PSA gave out PSA 10s to one or 2 people and the rest didnt have the same opportunity, you would think all of those PSA 8 card owners may have a cause of action for their grading fees

calvindog · #33 11-24-2019, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

The way PSA gave out PSA 10s to one or 2 people and the rest didnt have the same opportunity, you would think all of those PSA 8 card owners may have a cause of action for their grading fees

Huh

Peter_Spaeth · #34 11-24-2019, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

The way PSA gave out PSA 10s to one or 2 people and the rest didnt have the same opportunity, you would think all of those PSA 8 card owners may have a cause of action for their grading fees

Then again, they may not.

swarmee · #35 11-24-2019, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

The way PSA gave out PSA 10s to one or 2 people and the rest didnt have the same opportunity, you would think all of those PSA 8 card owners may have a cause of action for their grading fees

Have you read the Eagle Eye Joe thread about BGS and Joe Clemons. I bet you'd have a better winnable case with that one.

WhenItWasAHobby · #36 11-24-2019, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I gave up on trying to make a pun using Cheevers.

Presented without comment.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...7&postcount=27

The body count just increases.....

I read through the entire thread and in addition to the Cheevers card, there was some VERY ENLIGHTENING BIT OF NEWS IF TRUE (maybe the bubble has finally burst and they see this as their only way of surviving as a business):

"A PSA representative told a collector at the Chicago show this weekend that they don't issue refunds for altered cards.

Last week, PSA returned a collector's proven trimmed card in the same PSA 10 slab that was sent in to receive compensation under their Grade Guarantee. They were told to seek a refund from the seller. The only problem is the card has quadrupled in value since they purchased it.

Good responses there when PSA doesn't even want to acknowledge or honor their Grade Guarantee."

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...2&postcount=59

I'd be curious if anyone else had heard about this stance allegedly held by PSA? Any comments regardless?

Johnny630 · #37 11-24-2019, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

The body count just increases.....

I read through the entire thread and in addition to the Cheevers card, there was some VERY ENLIGHTENING BIT OF NEWS IF TRUE (maybe the bubble has finally burst and they see this as their only way of surviving as a business):

"A PSA representative told a collector at the Chicago show this weekend that they don't issue refunds for altered cards.

Last week, PSA returned a collector's proven trimmed card in the same PSA 10 slab that was sent in to receive compensation under their Grade Guarantee. They were told to seek a refund from the seller. The only problem is the card has quadrupled in value since they purchased it.

Good responses there when PSA doesn't even want to acknowledge or honor their Grade Guarantee."

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...2&postcount=59

I'd be curious if anyone else had heard about this stance allegedly held by PSA? Any comments regardless?

Wow that’s a Bombshell If this is true. This is Dreadful Shameful.

It seems PSA only cares about the major altering business rather than collectors. This is disgraceful another depressing page turns sour.

Peter_Spaeth · #38 11-24-2019, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

The body count just increases.....

I read through the entire thread and in addition to the Cheevers card, there was some VERY ENLIGHTENING BIT OF NEWS IF TRUE (maybe the bubble has finally burst and they see this as their only way of surviving as a business):

"A PSA representative told a collector at the Chicago show this weekend that they don't issue refunds for altered cards.

Last week, PSA returned a collector's proven trimmed card in the same PSA 10 slab that was sent in to receive compensation under their Grade Guarantee. They were told to seek a refund from the seller. The only problem is the card has quadrupled in value since they purchased it.

Good responses there when PSA doesn't even want to acknowledge or honor their Grade Guarantee."

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...2&postcount=59

I'd be curious if anyone else had heard about this stance allegedly held by PSA? Any comments regardless?

Well we saw Sloan urge people to go to their sellers first, way back when this first broke. That said, I am aware of at least one instance where PSA paid someone whose cards had appreciated the difference between his purchase price (which PWCC refunded) and market value. This is the first I've heard of PSA allegedly expressly disclaiming their guarantee altogether. Too many levels of hearsay for me to take it as gospel.

benjulmag · #39 11-25-2019, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

The body count just increases.....

I read through the entire thread and in addition to the Cheevers card, there was some VERY ENLIGHTENING BIT OF NEWS IF TRUE (maybe the bubble has finally burst and they see this as their only way of surviving as a business):

"A PSA representative told a collector at the Chicago show this weekend that they don't issue refunds for altered cards.

Last week, PSA returned a collector's proven trimmed card in the same PSA 10 slab that was sent in to receive compensation under their Grade Guarantee. They were told to seek a refund from the seller. The only problem is the card has quadrupled in value since they purchased it.

Good responses there when PSA doesn't even want to acknowledge or honor their Grade Guarantee."

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...2&postcount=59

I'd be curious if anyone else had heard about this stance allegedly held by PSA? Any comments regardless?

The reality IMO is that the number of altered slabbed cards, if exposed, would break PSA under their guaranty. Accordingly, to hear PSA allegedly take the position I highlighted in red does not surprise me in the least.

As yet this contingent liability has been kept under control because the market price of PSA slabbed cards has not been impacted to create the kind of financial loss that would induce card owners to spend the significant resources to sue under the guaranty. As the outing continues, presumably along with continued investigations by law enforcement, public knowledge of the fraud will increase. As has been noted, the question is whether it will increase to the point that the stock price of Collectors Universe will begin to fall, along with the market value of PSA slabbed cards.

Earlier I made a post expressing skepticism that absent a new TPG company that uses as part of its business model the outing of altered cards to gain market share, public knowledge may not increase to the level to threaten PSA. Now I simply don't know, and would not be surprised to see this all start to unravel sooner than might be expected.

This is a massive fraud folks, and based on Keith's video, raises the question if and to what extent PSA is in cahoots with the card doctors.

TPG was supposed to take us out of the wild west when deciding whether and how much to pay for a card. Peter's checklist of what a prudent person should do before deciding to buy a PSA slabbed card shatters any notion that TPG comes close to accomplishing this. It IS ridiculous that one would have to check off the items on Peter's list before going ahead with a purchase, and the fact it has IMO portends a not-so-rosy future for certain categories of PSA slabbed cards.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Potentially fake D350-3 Standard Biscuit backed cards on eBay	rhettyeakley	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	51	01-01-2024 08:24 PM
Fake Signed T206 Cards (Too Many to List in the Title, See First Post for List)	SetBuilder	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	1061	09-04-2020 07:44 PM
Am I Potentially Getting Scammed? Paypal	Orioles1954	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	12	03-20-2018 06:39 PM
How it feels to FINALLY cross your most-wanted card off your list.....	Archive	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	10	09-29-2007 12:15 PM
Potentially Dumb JSA/SGC Question	Archive	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	5	10-15-2006 07:42 AM