Best lefty off all time? My vote is Koufax!

[rats60]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

Koufax home ERA 1962-1965............... 1.32

Koufax road ERA 1962-1965................ 2.75


Nothing to see here obviously.

According to baseball reference, Koufax’s road ERA from 1962-1966 was 2.59. For pitchers with 400 or more innings pitched, the minimum to qualify for the ERA title, that was the best in Major League Baseball. Gibson and Marichal tied for second best at 2.69.

There is nothing to see. Koufax was great on the road and even greater at home. Any advantage Koufax gained from pitching in Dodger Stadium for 5 years is more than offset by pitching 4 years in the LA Coliseum with its 250 foot left field fence and 320 foot power alley in left-center.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by rats60

According to baseball reference, Koufax’s road ERA from 1962-1966 was 2.59. For pitchers with 400 or more innings pitched, the minimum to qualify for the ERA title, that was the best in Major League Baseball. Gibson and Marichal tied for second best at 2.69.

There is nothing to see. Koufax was great on the road and even greater at home. Any advantage Koufax gained from pitching in Dodger Stadium for 5 years is more than offset by pitching 4 years in the LA Coliseum with its 250 foot left field fence and 320 foot power alley in left-center.

If Koufax is the same pitcher at home as he was on the road he isn't close to a Hall Of Famer. That's a fact. He would have been a really good pitcher for five years. Not the insane pitcher that his stats show. He was able to turn his video game numbers at home over a five year period into the Hall Of Fame. That's not that much of a knock on him. I think Larry Walker should have been in the Hall a while ago. I think Koufax is an obvious Hall Of Famer and one of the best who ever threw a baseball. We all missed out on a lot when he was physically unable to perform.

It just mystifies me why nobody seems to want to admit that he was a creature of his home park during his prime. As you say, even if you take into account his road numbers and just double them, he is likely the best pitcher in the game over those five years. But he's not "Koufax!!!!!!!". He's just Koufax.

And yes, from 1958 to 1961 his home park hurt his numbers. Actually he had an anomalous 1959 season where he was much better at home, but the rest he was much better on the road. He wasn't the same pitcher he would become after 1961 during this time however. Doubling his road numbers to replace his home numbers he was still fairly ordinary over that period, save for a lot more strikeouts than the ordinary pitcher. It is what he did from 1962-1966 that got him immortal status, and that was largely a home field driven event. That's just a fact. His home field over that period is why his numbers are so insane.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

If Koufax is the same pitcher at home as he was on the road he isn't close to a Hall Of Famer. That's a fact. He would have been a really good pitcher for five years. Not the insane pitcher that his stats show. He was able to turn his video game numbers at home over a five year period into the Hall Of Fame. That's not that much of a knock on him. I think Larry Walker should have been in the Hall a while ago. I think Koufax is an obvious Hall Of Famer and one of the best who ever threw a baseball. We all missed out on a lot when he was physically unable to perform.

It just mystifies me why nobody seems to want to admit that he was a creature of his home park during his prime. As you say, even if you take into account his road numbers and just double them, he is likely the best pitcher in the game over those five years. But he's not "Koufax!!!!!!!". He's just Koufax.

And yes, from 1958 to 1961 his home park hurt his numbers. Actually he had an anomalous 1959 season where he was much better at home, but the rest he was much better on the road. He wasn't the same pitcher he would become after 1961 during this time however. Doubling his road numbers to replace his home numbers he was still fairly ordinary over that period, save for a lot more strikeouts than the ordinary pitcher. It is what he did from 1962-1966 that got him immortal status, and that was largely a home field driven event. That's just a fact. His home field over that period is why his numbers are so insane.

Koufax still has a better ERA, WHIP, FIP, K/9 than Grove. So you still want to kick out of the HOF Grove, Spahn, Carlton, Randy Johnson, Feller, Ryan, Maddox, etc. Your new standard has gone from 1 to 8 live ball pitchers, Ford, Palmer, Seaver, Marichal, Gibson, Martinez, Drysdale and Hubbell. Or are you not letting other pitchers who had worse road ERAs in too because Drysdale also benefits from Dodger Stadium? Then he has to go along with Palmer, Martinez and Hubbell. That leaves you with only 4 modern pitchers in your HOF, Ford, Seaver, Gibson and Marichal. What a coincidence that they are all from the same time period as Koufax. Should we kick them out too because the hitters were too weak? Any standard you apply to Koufax, he is still a first ballot Hofer, he was that good, even on the road.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by rats60

Koufax still has a better ERA, WHIP, FIP, K/9 than Grove. So you still want to kick out of the HOF Grove, Spahn, Carlton, Randy Johnson, Feller, Ryan, Maddox, etc. Your new standard has gone from 1 to 8 live ball pitchers, Ford, Palmer, Seaver, Marichal, Gibson, Martinez, Drysdale and Hubbell. Or are you not letting other pitchers who had worse road ERAs in too because Drysdale also benefits from Dodger Stadium? Then he has to go along with Palmer, Martinez and Hubbell. That leaves you with only 4 modern pitchers in your HOF, Ford, Seaver, Gibson and Marichal. What a coincidence that they are all from the same time period as Koufax. Should we kick them out too because the hitters were too weak? Any standard you apply to Koufax, he is still a first ballot Hofer, he was that good, even on the road.

Koufax video game numbers were a product of his home park.

Period.

If he was "the best in baseball" over a five year period, he doesn't get into the Hall. He just doesn't and I don't see how that is debatable. Take away his home numbers from 1962-1966 and just double his road numbers and there is no way that career gets him into the Hall. I don't even see how that can be questioned. He would have been Gary Peters but with a lot more strikeouts from 1962-1966.

If Peters isn't a Hall of Famer...

[rats60]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

Koufax video game numbers were a product of his home park.

Period.

If he was "the best in baseball" over a five year period, he doesn't get into the Hall. He just doesn't and I don't see how that is debatable. Take away his home numbers from 1962-1966 and just double his road numbers and there is no way that career gets him into the Hall. I don't even see how that can be questioned. He would have been Gary Peters but with a lot more strikeouts from 1962-1966.

If Peters isn't a Hall of Famer...

False. Koufax was by far the best pitcher in MLB on the road over that 5 years. He still wins 3 Cy Youngs, 2 WS MVPs and 4 rings and is a first ballot HOFer.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by rats60

False. Koufax was by far the best pitcher in MLB on the road over that 5 years. He still wins 3 Cy Youngs, 2 WS MVPs and 4 rings and is a first ballot HOFer.

2 Cy Youngs. Not three. Two. 1963 his road numbers doubled give you:

28-8 2.31 ERA 324 k

This edges out Dick Ellsworth, though it is fairly close:

22-10 2.11 ERA 185 k

1966 his road numbers doubled are:

28-8 1.96 ERA 314 k

That beats Juan Marichal but again it is somewhat close:

25-6 2.23 ERA 222 K

However

In 1965 Koufax road numbers doubled are:

14-6 2.93 ERA 198k

Marichal destroys him.

22-13 2.13 ERA 240k


So that gives him 2 Cy Youngs, 2 WS MVPs and 4 rings. And career numbers that aren't close to what they are when Chavez Ravene gets entered into the equation. Maybe a borderline HOFer because he is so likebale and people feel sorry for him having to quit at such a young age? Maybe?

Best lefty ever though? Please.

[btcarfagno]

Boy I botched that up pretty good.

1965 is a toss up for Cy Young.

Koufax road numbers doubled are:

24-10 2.72 ERA 348 k

Juan Marichal:

22-13 2.13 ERA 240 k

And for 1965 if we go to WAR for pitchers, Koufax INCLUDING HIS HOME GAMES is at 8.1 which was third in the league behind Marichal at 10.3 and Maloney at 8.2.

But just looking at the "traditional" stats they would have used back then a good argument could be made for either one.

If Koufax gets this third Cy I would agree he would be a HOFer in the traditionalist sense. If the third Cy instead goes to Marichal (as WAR says it should have anyway) then if Koufax gets into the Hall he squeaks in with a lot of help from a friendly BBWAA.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

If Koufax is the same pitcher at home as he was on the road he isn't close to a Hall Of Famer. That's a fact. He would have been a really good pitcher for five years. Not the insane pitcher that his stats show. He was able to turn his video game numbers at home over a five year period into the Hall Of Fame. That's not that much of a knock on him. I think Larry Walker should have been in the Hall a while ago. I think Koufax is an obvious Hall Of Famer and one of the best who ever threw a baseball. We all missed out on a lot when he was physically unable to perform.

It just mystifies me why nobody seems to want to admit that he was a creature of his home park during his prime. As you say, even if you take into account his road numbers and just double them, he is likely the best pitcher in the game over those five years. But he's not "Koufax!!!!!!!". He's just Koufax.

And yes, from 1958 to 1961 his home park hurt his numbers. Actually he had an anomalous 1959 season where he was much better at home, but the rest he was much better on the road. He wasn't the same pitcher he would become after 1961 during this time however. Doubling his road numbers to replace his home numbers he was still fairly ordinary over that period, save for a lot more strikeouts than the ordinary pitcher. It is what he did from 1962-1966 that got him immortal status, and that was largely a home field driven event. That's just a fact. His home field over that period is why his numbers are so insane.

Tom- this is laughable. Why not ask or read comments from former players batting against Koufax.. 3 Cy Youngs in 4 years?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Tom- this is laughable. Why not ask or read comments from former players batting against Koufax.. 3 Cy Youngs in 4 years?

Mathematics is much more instructive than heavily biased accounts of players who did not face the other great left handers. Verifiable facts > anecdotal opinions.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by G1911

Mathematics is much more instructive than heavily biased accounts of players who did not face the other great left handers. Verifiable facts > anecdotal opinions.

Yeah, I'm sure the guys Grove was striking out (as he led the league 7 straight years) said he was a pretty outstanding pitcher too. Are we supposed to stack up quotes from guys who faced Koufax but not Grove, vs guys who faced Grove but not Koufax, and try to figure out who piled on the superlatives to the greatest extent?

As far as Sandy and his Cy Young awards, Grove would've at least equaled, and probably topped him. Let's compare their top 6 season runs:

Grove
1928 24-8 2.58 (led in wins, strikeouts)
1929 20-6 2.81 (led in ERA, strikeouts)
1930 28-5 2.54 (led in wins, ERA, strikeouts)
1931 31-4 2.06 (led in wins, ERA, strikeouts)
1932 25-10 2.84 (led in ERA, strikeouts)
1933 24-8 3.20 (led in wins, strikeouts)

Plus 148 more career ML wins, and 111 minor league wins

Koufax
1961 18-13 3.52 (led in strikeouts)
1962 14-7 2.54 (led in ERA)
1963 25-5 1.88 (led in wins, ERA, strikeouts)
1964 19-5 1.74 (led in ERA)
1965 26-8 2.04 (led in wins, ERA, strikeouts)
1966 27-9 1.73 (led in wins, ERA, strikeouts)

Plus 36 more career ML wins

Grove's best season, 1931, beats Sandy's best (1963 or 1966, you choose)
Grove's best 6 year run beat Sandy's
The remainder of Grove's career destroys Sandy's (148 more wins to just 36)

For extra credit, Grove was forced to spend his first 5 years in the minors, where he won another 100+ games.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Yeah, I'm sure the guys Grove was striking out (as he led the league 7 straight years) said he was a pretty outstanding pitcher too. Are we supposed to stack up quotes from guys who faced Koufax but not Grove, vs guys who faced Grove but not Koufax, and try to figure out who piled on the superlatives to the greatest extent?

As far as Sandy and his Cy Young awards, Grove would've at least equaled, and probably topped him. Let's compare their top 6 season runs:

Grove
1928 24-8 2.58 (led in wins, strikeouts)
1929 20-6 2.81 (led in ERA, strikeouts)
1930 28-5 2.54 (led in wins, ERA, strikeouts)
1931 31-4 2.06 (led in wins, ERA, strikeouts)
1932 25-10 2.84 (led in ERA, strikeouts)
1933 24-8 3.20 (led in wins, strikeouts)

Plus 148 more career ML wins, and 111 minor league wins

Koufax
1961 18-13 3.52 (led in strikeouts)
1962 14-7 2.54 (led in ERA)
1963 25-5 1.88 (led in wins, ERA, strikeouts)
1964 19-5 1.74 (led in ERA)
1965 26-8 2.04 (led in wins, ERA, strikeouts)
1966 27-9 1.73 (led in wins, ERA, strikeouts)

Plus 36 more career ML wins

Grove's best season, 1931, beats Sandy's best (1963 or 1966, you choose)
Grove's best 6 year run beat Sandy's
The remainder of Grove's career destroys Sandy's (148 more wins to just 36)

For extra credit, Grove was forced to spend his first 5 years in the minors, where he won another 100+ games.

Yeah, but Grove had higher raw ERA's, and we are pretending that park affects and low-run environments are somehow irrelevant for Koufax

[rats60]

Originally Posted by G1911

Yeah, but Grove had higher raw ERA's, and we are pretending that park affects and low-run environments are somehow irrelevant for Koufax

Low run environment is irrelevant when caused by superior pitching. Same for park affect when you choose to ignore Koufax's 4 years in the LA Coliseum.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by G1911

Mathematics is much more instructive than heavily biased accounts of players who did not face the other great left handers. Verifiable facts > anecdotal opinions.

Mathematics support Koufax as the greatest lefty ever too.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Tom- this is laughable. Why not ask or read comments from former players batting against Koufax.. 3 Cy Youngs in 4 years?

HOME. FIELD.

Larry Walker was a similar player with similar video game numbers at home for 6 of his 8 years in Colorado. Yet noone looks at him as one of the greatest left handed hitters of all time. Why? Everyone talks about how his home park affected his numbers. NOONE talks about that with Koufax, but it is just as true.