Best lefty off all time? My vote is Koufax!

[rats60]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

If Koufax is the same pitcher at home as he was on the road he isn't close to a Hall Of Famer. That's a fact. He would have been a really good pitcher for five years. Not the insane pitcher that his stats show. He was able to turn his video game numbers at home over a five year period into the Hall Of Fame. That's not that much of a knock on him. I think Larry Walker should have been in the Hall a while ago. I think Koufax is an obvious Hall Of Famer and one of the best who ever threw a baseball. We all missed out on a lot when he was physically unable to perform.

It just mystifies me why nobody seems to want to admit that he was a creature of his home park during his prime. As you say, even if you take into account his road numbers and just double them, he is likely the best pitcher in the game over those five years. But he's not "Koufax!!!!!!!". He's just Koufax.

And yes, from 1958 to 1961 his home park hurt his numbers. Actually he had an anomalous 1959 season where he was much better at home, but the rest he was much better on the road. He wasn't the same pitcher he would become after 1961 during this time however. Doubling his road numbers to replace his home numbers he was still fairly ordinary over that period, save for a lot more strikeouts than the ordinary pitcher. It is what he did from 1962-1966 that got him immortal status, and that was largely a home field driven event. That's just a fact. His home field over that period is why his numbers are so insane.

Koufax still has a better ERA, WHIP, FIP, K/9 than Grove. So you still want to kick out of the HOF Grove, Spahn, Carlton, Randy Johnson, Feller, Ryan, Maddox, etc. Your new standard has gone from 1 to 8 live ball pitchers, Ford, Palmer, Seaver, Marichal, Gibson, Martinez, Drysdale and Hubbell. Or are you not letting other pitchers who had worse road ERAs in too because Drysdale also benefits from Dodger Stadium? Then he has to go along with Palmer, Martinez and Hubbell. That leaves you with only 4 modern pitchers in your HOF, Ford, Seaver, Gibson and Marichal. What a coincidence that they are all from the same time period as Koufax. Should we kick them out too because the hitters were too weak? Any standard you apply to Koufax, he is still a first ballot Hofer, he was that good, even on the road.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by rats60

Koufax still has a better ERA, WHIP, FIP, K/9 than Grove. So you still want to kick out of the HOF Grove, Spahn, Carlton, Randy Johnson, Feller, Ryan, Maddox, etc. Your new standard has gone from 1 to 8 live ball pitchers, Ford, Palmer, Seaver, Marichal, Gibson, Martinez, Drysdale and Hubbell. Or are you not letting other pitchers who had worse road ERAs in too because Drysdale also benefits from Dodger Stadium? Then he has to go along with Palmer, Martinez and Hubbell. That leaves you with only 4 modern pitchers in your HOF, Ford, Seaver, Gibson and Marichal. What a coincidence that they are all from the same time period as Koufax. Should we kick them out too because the hitters were too weak? Any standard you apply to Koufax, he is still a first ballot Hofer, he was that good, even on the road.

Koufax video game numbers were a product of his home park.

Period.

If he was "the best in baseball" over a five year period, he doesn't get into the Hall. He just doesn't and I don't see how that is debatable. Take away his home numbers from 1962-1966 and just double his road numbers and there is no way that career gets him into the Hall. I don't even see how that can be questioned. He would have been Gary Peters but with a lot more strikeouts from 1962-1966.

If Peters isn't a Hall of Famer...

[rats60]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

Koufax video game numbers were a product of his home park.

Period.

If he was "the best in baseball" over a five year period, he doesn't get into the Hall. He just doesn't and I don't see how that is debatable. Take away his home numbers from 1962-1966 and just double his road numbers and there is no way that career gets him into the Hall. I don't even see how that can be questioned. He would have been Gary Peters but with a lot more strikeouts from 1962-1966.

If Peters isn't a Hall of Famer...

False. Koufax was by far the best pitcher in MLB on the road over that 5 years. He still wins 3 Cy Youngs, 2 WS MVPs and 4 rings and is a first ballot HOFer.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by rats60

False. Koufax was by far the best pitcher in MLB on the road over that 5 years. He still wins 3 Cy Youngs, 2 WS MVPs and 4 rings and is a first ballot HOFer.

2 Cy Youngs. Not three. Two. 1963 his road numbers doubled give you:

28-8 2.31 ERA 324 k

This edges out Dick Ellsworth, though it is fairly close:

22-10 2.11 ERA 185 k

1966 his road numbers doubled are:

28-8 1.96 ERA 314 k

That beats Juan Marichal but again it is somewhat close:

25-6 2.23 ERA 222 K

However

In 1965 Koufax road numbers doubled are:

14-6 2.93 ERA 198k

Marichal destroys him.

22-13 2.13 ERA 240k


So that gives him 2 Cy Youngs, 2 WS MVPs and 4 rings. And career numbers that aren't close to what they are when Chavez Ravene gets entered into the equation. Maybe a borderline HOFer because he is so likebale and people feel sorry for him having to quit at such a young age? Maybe?

Best lefty ever though? Please.

[btcarfagno]

Boy I botched that up pretty good.

1965 is a toss up for Cy Young.

Koufax road numbers doubled are:

24-10 2.72 ERA 348 k

Juan Marichal:

22-13 2.13 ERA 240 k

And for 1965 if we go to WAR for pitchers, Koufax INCLUDING HIS HOME GAMES is at 8.1 which was third in the league behind Marichal at 10.3 and Maloney at 8.2.

But just looking at the "traditional" stats they would have used back then a good argument could be made for either one.

If Koufax gets this third Cy I would agree he would be a HOFer in the traditionalist sense. If the third Cy instead goes to Marichal (as WAR says it should have anyway) then if Koufax gets into the Hall he squeaks in with a lot of help from a friendly BBWAA.

[howard38]

.

[Koufax32fan]

Found this on SB Nation - looking at WAR/200 innings pitched (https://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/20...-rate-stat-top) [he lists the % of games started because he broke out relievers in another table]


Rank Name Innings WAR WAR/200 IP GS%
1 Pedro Martinez 2827.5 75.9 5.37 85.92
2 Roger Clemens 4916.6 128.4 5.22 99.72
3 Lefty Grove 3940.6 98.3 4.99 74.19
4 Johan Santana 1709.7 42.1 4.92 75.48
5 Sandy Koufax 2324.4 54.5 4.69 79.09
6 Roy Halladay 2046.6 47.4 4.63 91.69
7 Randy Johnson 4135.4 91.8 4.44 97.57
8 Brandon Webb 1319.7 29.2 4.43 99.5
9 Bob Gibson 3884.4 85.6 4.41 91.29
10 Tom Seaver 4782.6 105.3 4.40 98.63
11 Roy Oswalt 1803.4 39.5 4.38 95.76
12 Walter Johnson 5914.7 127.7 4.32 83.04
13 Curt Schilling 3261 69.7 4.27 76.63
14 Bret Saberhagen 2562.6 54.7 4.27 92.98
15 Mike Mussina 3562.8 74.8 4.20 99.81
16 Teddy Higuera 1379.9 28.3 4.10 96.24
17 Harry Brecheen 1907.4 38.8 4.07 75.47
18 Kid Nichols 5056.3 102.3 4.05 90.48
19 Pete Alexander 5189.9 104.9 4.04 86.06
20 Dizzy Dean 1967.3 39.6 4.03 72.56
21 Kevin Brown 3256.3 64.8 3.98 97.94
22 Tim Hudson 2059.5 40.9 3.97 99.68
23 Cy Young 7354.8 146.0 3.97 89.96
24 David Cone 2898.8 57.5 3.97 93.11
25 C.C. Sabathia 1889.4 37.3 3.95 100

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by howard38

You're still making a fundamental error though. You can't simply double his road stats to get an approximation because that assumes he made the same number of starts at home & away every year. It works out in 1965 & 1966 but in 1963 doubling his road stats gives him 46 starts for the season when, in fact, he made only 40 starts combined which knocks down his expected wins to about 24. You also have to consider that there was only one Cy Young award per season at that time so in addition to Dick Ellsworth he'd also have to contend w/24 game winner Whitey Ford.

True. I figured it was generally fairly even, or that it might give Koufax a slight bump even as you mentioned.

Camilo Pascual was likely better than Ford in 1963, with a record of 21-9 2.46 ERA and league leading 202k. Neither of them was as good as "road" Koufax or Ellsworth in 1963 though I don't think.

Sam McDowall was likely the best in the AL in 1965 but at 17-11 he would fall short even conceding his league best ERA of 2.18 and league best strikeouts of 325.

I would still give the Cy to the "road" Koufax in 1963 and 1966. 1962 and 1964 forget it. 1965 still a Koufax/Marichal toss up, though advanced metrics choose Marichal in 1965 over even the actual Koufax.