T220 Silver - Uncut Edition

[G1911]

I'm not up to speed on the plate scratches. I've seen the Obak and AC setups. I don't think they are the same printer, but I don't think that printer is known. I may be a little behind more recent discoveries though.

If we come up with a sheet about this wide, it would gives us 3 panels in a row, making it unlikely these are all from one sheet.

Before this find, my suspicion was multiple size sheets were used, and layouts were different for small format and large format cards. Large format cards seem to repeat top to bottom, and also horizontally. Small format cards don't seem to have been printed in blocks, but with a card repeating only vertically.

It's interesting we have only one corner piece and no left panels. I suspect either the sheet is huge, some of the interior-looking panels are trimmed to cut the white border, and/or The E229's fit into the same, large sheet.

I hope what we may learn from this is helpful to other sets in the ATC/AL partnership. I have some uncut T25 strips as well showing different cards adjacent to each other in a large format, different from T220-1 and T218-3.

[Pat R]

Yeah I was just pointing out the ability and possibility of them being printed on a large sheet.

I've seen some mention that the Obaks were printed by Schmidt Lithograph and it was mentioned in post #9 in this older thread that they used some similar lithograph presses as American Lithograph.

https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...773#post842773


There's also some information on the sizes of some of the presses used by ALC in this thread

https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=125899

[G1911]

I'm not sure how the press sizes a decade prior will relate to the sheets, and produces quite a range of possibilities there.

Is there a source or evidence for Schmidt printing T212? the post here says they "used similar presses", and Obak is mentioned only once in passing without relation to Schmidt using my fancy command F. I presume the printer of T212 was the printer of T224/T229 based on the stylistic resemblances.


I can add T29 to the list of probably block-subject printed sets from miscuts. T25 is not in block format, T29, T218-3 are, most don't have cards cut so bad we can tell, or uncut material. 25 subjects on a sheet makes a lot of sense. If it was this way, I've seen no evidence of double printing to compensate for the Donovan and Corbett getting yanked from their sheet(s) very, very early on.


On a related printing note, does anyone know what happened to the second ledger that surfaced? Lelands sold it for $8k a couple years ago, it had information on T220 among other sets, but only a small sampling was shown in the listing (https://auction.lelands.com/bids/bidplace?itemid=976570). There may be some clues in here if its owner is willing to divulge. Much of the evidence that would help piece things together appears to be silo'd; there seems much more out there and extant than is talked about openly.

[Pat R]

I have no idea who printed the Obacks I just said it was mentioned that Schmidt did.

Originally Posted by tedzan

We have gone thru this numerous times in past threads over the years.

You cannot compare Schmidt Lithographic's (San Francisco) printing methods and machinery used to produce the OBAK's with
American Lithographic's (NYC) printing methods & machinery that produced the T206's, T205's, T209's, T210's, T211's, T213's,
T214's and T215's.

Where is your evidence that supports you making this claim ?

Furthermore, mathematically speaking, tell us how your "17" (or whatever) format maps into the following T206 structures ? ?


150 Series
-------------
150-only group = 12 subjects
150/350 series = 144 subjects

350-only series = 204 subjects
------------------

350/460 series = 60 subjects....plus the 6 super-prints (which were usually Double-Printed)
------------------

460-only series
------------------
Exclusive 12 group = 12 subjects
Subjects printed only with 460 type backs = 36

Southern Lgrs. = 48 subjects
-----------------



Hey guys............
It does not require Rocket Science to see that the common denominator in all these Series structures is a factor of 12.



TED Z
.

Good luck with your panels.

[Exhibitman]

It is also possible that the proof sheet alignment was not replicated in the production sheet. I've only seen a few proof sheets before from other makers, but they were smaller than the production sheets; my guess is to make them easier to pass around the office for comment and approval.

I don't think the other ATC cards hold a candle to the ones made by the Obak/Pet/Kopec printer. Look at the depth and quality of image on these:




That's a lot more lithographic layers than the typical ATC product. The best of the other cards still have a more stylized, less layered quality:




As for T218 sheet alignment, I offer one humble piece of data:

[G1911]

As far as I am aware, this is the only "full sheet" of an ATC/AL partnership set known (not mine). It's a pre-production 'pass around' of T62, I believe, due to the tiny size that would have been completely impractical for actual production run.

I suspect the layout will tell us if this is similar, or what the probable full production run would have been. If it's one or two sheets, it's very likely the final layout as redoing the layout on a full-size sheet would seem to serve zero purpose. If it's just a couple cards together and this is many sheets, then it probably is a 'pass around'.

The Summers card is why I think T218-3 will follow this similar block printing format. I have a T29 Hippopotamus card suggesting it too was done in block format. But, my strips of T25's would show not all large-size cards in the partnership were done this way. Horizontal miscuts on the large size cards are almost non-existant. I have 3 or 4 vertical T220-2 white borders showing the same card on top of itself. Never seen a T220-1 Silver miscut either direction.

I love the West Coast T cards. It's a shame they never did a set in the larger physical format, the detail in the faces, the bold backgrounds. I've slowly begun T224/T229 the last couple months, up to a whopping 5 cards.

[Exhibitman]

I'm not sure who did the 1912 Capital [sic] Candy and Cracker set but the lithography strikes me as very similar to the West Coast cards:



I wish I could find more (I only have the Sheppard) but they are just rare as hens' teeth. And yeah, that's Jim Thorpe.

I also found another issue that has striking depth of imagery, from prewar Germany:

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by G1911

As far as I am aware, this is the only "full sheet" of an ATC/AL partnership set known (not mine). It's a pre-production 'pass around' of T62, I believe, due to the tiny size that would have been completely impractical for actual production run.

I suspect the layout will tell us if this is similar, or what the probable full production run would have been. If it's one or two sheets, it's very likely the final layout as redoing the layout on a full-size sheet would seem to serve zero purpose. If it's just a couple cards together and this is many sheets, then it probably is a 'pass around'.

The Summers card is why I think T218-3 will follow this similar block printing format. I have a T29 Hippopotamus card suggesting it too was done in block format. But, my strips of T25's would show not all large-size cards in the partnership were done this way. Horizontal miscuts on the large size cards are almost non-existant. I have 3 or 4 vertical T220-2 white borders showing the same card on top of itself. Never seen a T220-1 Silver miscut either direction.

I love the West Coast T cards. It's a shame they never did a set in the larger physical format, the detail in the faces, the bold backgrounds. I've slowly begun T224/T229 the last couple months, up to a whopping 5 cards.

There's a full sheet of S81 silks I believe that's an ATC/AL product.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by G1911

As far as I am aware, this is the only "full sheet" of an ATC/AL partnership set known (not mine). It's a pre-production 'pass around' of T62, I believe, due to the tiny size that would have been completely impractical for actual production run.

I suspect the layout will tell us if this is similar, or what the probable full production run would have been. If it's one or two sheets, it's very likely the final layout as redoing the layout on a full-size sheet would seem to serve zero purpose. If it's just a couple cards together and this is many sheets, then it probably is a 'pass around'.

The Summers card is why I think T218-3 will follow this similar block printing format. I have a T29 Hippopotamus card suggesting it too was done in block format. But, my strips of T25's would show not all large-size cards in the partnership were done this way. Horizontal miscuts on the large size cards are almost non-existant. I have 3 or 4 vertical T220-2 white borders showing the same card on top of itself. Never seen a T220-1 Silver miscut either direction.

I love the West Coast T cards. It's a shame they never did a set in the larger physical format, the detail in the faces, the bold backgrounds. I've slowly begun T224/T229 the last couple months, up to a whopping 5 cards.

Yes, that would be a progressive proof. There are still some books from ALC that have complete progressive proofs of each color plus most combinations for cigar box labels.

I don't recall ever seeing a full book for cards.

I think it's likely these were from the masters used to print the layout transfers for the production plates/stones.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by G1911

I'm not sure how the press sizes a decade prior will relate to the sheets, and produces quite a range of possibilities there.

Is there a source or evidence for Schmidt printing T212? the post here says they "used similar presses", and Obak is mentioned only once in passing without relation to Schmidt using my fancy command F. I presume the printer of T212 was the printer of T224/T229 based on the stylistic resemblances.


I can add T29 to the list of probably block-subject printed sets from miscuts. T25 is not in block format, T29, T218-3 are, most don't have cards cut so bad we can tell, or uncut material. 25 subjects on a sheet makes a lot of sense. If it was this way, I've seen no evidence of double printing to compensate for the Donovan and Corbett getting yanked from their sheet(s) very, very early on.


On a related printing note, does anyone know what happened to the second ledger that surfaced? Lelands sold it for $8k a couple years ago, it had information on T220 among other sets, but only a small sampling was shown in the listing (https://auction.lelands.com/bids/bidplace?itemid=976570). There may be some clues in here if its owner is willing to divulge. Much of the evidence that would help piece things together appears to be silo'd; there seems much more out there and extant than is talked about openly.

Your link doesn't work maybe this one will

https://auction.lelands.com/bids/bidplace?itemid=97657


This book indicates that the Old Masters Litho Corporation printed some of the T220's and T225's.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Your link doesn't work maybe this one will

https://auction.lelands.com/bids/bidplace?itemid=97657


This book indicates that the Old Masters Litho Corporation printed some of the T220's and T225's.

Thank you for correcting the link. Yes, I have the description of the auction and it's handful of images. Covers N's, T's, and possibly beyond the 1912 general end date. Gives exact dates for T225 printing, has an ad for T223 in it as well, but many of the pages aren't shown. It also seems to indicate Brett Lithography Co. printed cards as well. I presume these are both subsidiaries of American Lithography that bought out most of the NY area lithographers, but information online appears scant. I'm hoping it will turn up again in the hobby with an owner willing to share its information, as there is surely much more than in the listing.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by G1911

Thank you for correcting the link. Yes, I have the description of the auction and it's handful of images. Covers N's, T's, and possibly beyond the 1912 general end date. Gives exact dates for T225 printing, has an ad for T223 in it as well, but many of the pages aren't shown. It also seems to indicate Brett Lithography Co. printed cards as well. I presume these are both subsidiaries of American Lithography that bought out most of the NY area lithographers, but information online appears scant. I'm hoping it will turn up again in the hobby with an owner willing to share its information, as there is surely much more than in the listing.

Brett Litho?? That's what the stamp on your sheet says!

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Brett Litho?? That's what the stamp on your sheet says!

Nice catch Adam it states in the scrapbook that the Brett plant burned around
March 30 1910 maybe Fullgraff was doing some printing for them?

I found an interesting newspaper article on Brett Lithograph I will clip and post it.