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[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

+100

The issue is not whether the card is altered, but whether an “expert” authentication and grading company has certified/slabbed an altered card with a numerical grade, implying it has not been altered.

There are countless examples of PSA reaffirming their grades in the face of overwhelming evidence of grading. Beckett snd SGC are hardly clean themselves (although I openly favor SGC and think they do the nest job/make the fewest mistakes?

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Exactly. It's all about disclosure. If it isn't disclosed, it's fraud. Many of us aren't interested in rewarding the skill of some criminal who can make cards look prettier. Originality may not be important to others, I get that. But that choice should be made on an informed basis, not on the basis of deception.

There's an example in the casino memorabilia collectibles hobby that I think parallels either where this hobby currently stands or is at least destined to land. There are a lot of people who collect casino chips, myself included. Every year in Vegas, there is a chip convention, which is their equivalent of the National (albeit much smaller). Extremely rare and valuable chips trade hands at dealers' booths just like cards do at sports card conventions. The main difference is that casino chip collectors have rejected the slabbing of casino chips by a TPG. However, a chip's overall condition still affects the value of a chip. But in that hobby, nearly everyone cleans their chips if they are dirty. There are countless forum threads or YouTube videos teaching people how to clean their chips, and everyone in that hobby discusses it regularly. I have an ultrasonic cleaner that I'm constantly loaning to friends who use it to clean the chips in their collection. I've even made videos for people about how to do it. Some ignoramus over at Blowhard even attempted to "call me out" as a conman by linking to it on Blowhard, saying "see, he even alters casino chips!" as if anyone cares. But in that hobby, not only are people ok with cleaning their chips, nearly everyone prefers it. A chip's value is determined by how much wear the chip has, not whether or not it has been cleaned (or "altered" as some baseball card enthusiasts would charge). However, every year at the chip convention there is this one dealer who sets up his booth and announces with pride to any prospective buyers that his chips haven't been cleaned, unlike all the other chips at the convention and are thus in their "orginal" state and untainted. He boasts this as a point of pride and prices them at a premium over his neighboring dealers because in his eyes, that makes them worth more. He's the only one left out of a small handful of chip dealers over the years who still thinks this way. Nobody else in the hobby gives two shits about it though, and if they buy a chip from him (which almost nobody ever does because his prices are too high) then they're just going to roll their eyes as they overpay and then take the chip home and clean it before adding it to their display case at home. It's pretty funny. Whenever I read through the comments on the Blowhard forums, I always picture that guy with his dirty chips yelling at clouds. I bet he wants to turn the everyone else in to the cops for committing "fraud" with their cleaned "altered" chips that nobody else even thought about disclosing because nobody cares.

If any of you ultra purists want a sneak peek of the future of this hobby, just fly into Vegas the 3rd week of June next year and head on down to the South Point Casino to check out the chip convention and look for our friend. You can't miss him. He's the guy with the dirty chips and no one standing in front of his booth.

If a card has been altered and looks mangled, the market will adjust for it. If someone gets scammed by a counterfietter or by someone recoloring or rebacking a card, there are legal recourses they can pursue. If a card has been altered but that alteration cannot be detected, then what difference does it make? If you don't trust the opinions of the TPGs, then you don't have to play that game. Feel free to buy and sell everything raw and trust your own judgment. The TPGs are just trying to render an opinion and the hobby has chosen to value those opinions. They're just people like you and me though at the end of the day. They're not infallible. It doesn't make them criminals just because people can "sneak one past the goalie", or even if they can "sneak one past the goalie" with regularity. They're just offering opinions. Hell, it doesn't even make the person who altered a card a criminal. If you honestly think that a court of law is going to find someone guilty of a crime because they bought a baseball card, cleaned it, and then resold it for more money, I think you're delusional. When someone does this in the casino chips collection hobby, it's called a "cleaning fee", and people are happy to pay more for chips that have been cleaned. If some dumbass tries to clean a chip by tossing it in a bucket of Clorox Bleach, then they're going to ruin that chip and its resale value will be greatly affected as a result. Same with this hobby. If someone tries to clean a card with some magic potion of harsh chemicals that end up ruining the card, then the market value of that card will plummet, slabbed or unslabbed. People don't like washed out looking cards any more than chip collectors want washed out looking chips. But if you still want to complain because when is able to clean a card safely, without the use of harsh chemicals, restoring it to its original state before little Billy spilled his hot cocoa on it then you've just become the old man yelling at clouds. It also doesn't make the TPGs immoral or incompetent because they couldn't detect that the card was cleaned. But if you think you can detect all these alterations with your eagle eyes, then go start up the BODA grading company where you can research every submission for 2 hours straight, scouring the internet for possible matches before giving it the BODA seal of approval (that is, until the 'before' photo later surfaces... oops, now what?). Maybe you can get a nifty little sticker to put on it like Mike Baker does? Perhaps it will demand a premium? (I know where I'll place my bets on that wager). But if you don't like the opinion of a TPG, then just get another one or don't get one at all. Who cares? At the end of the day, it's just a card. But most of us value their opinions a lot more than 'jumpinJimmy123' on eBay who lists his VG 3 cards as "near mint" on eBay. But that doesn't mean I'm buying a PSA card blindly just because it's in their holder. I'm still going to examine it for myself to see if it meets my standards.