Roger Clemens - Where does he rank?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Rad_Hazard

Interesting, I don't remember ever hearing that about either person.

So for Pudge all we have are Canseco accusations, and for Piazza we just have straight up suspicion with no evidence nor a flimsy story?

I truly don't think Piazza ever juiced. He was always big and worked very hard.

Who knows, agree it has not been proven. But there was lots of talk about both.

[Rad_Hazard]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Who knows, agree it has not been proven. But there was lots of talk about both.

True, I guess I never realized so thanks for pointing it out.

With Ortiz he was listed in a report and was straight up busted so it's a bit odd how he gets preferential treatment.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Rad_Hazard

True, I guess I never realized so thanks for pointing it out.

With Ortiz he was listed in a report and was straight up busted so it's a bit odd how he gets preferential treatment.

He was beloved. That's why.

[gonefishin]

I must have got Baseball's Hall of Fame mixed up with the Rock N Roll Hall of Fame. There it doesn't matter even if you were/are so drugged up that you died/die of an overdose; Hendrix, Joplin, Morrison, heck even Tom Petty. I loved their music! It doesn't matter to me that they are elected to the RnR Hall of Fame. I guess one could correlate the 2 HoF's; i.e., Play in stadium's, charge admittance to see them play, appeal to young people, performances broadcast on TV and radio, etc. etc. etc.

There is one MAJOR difference: MLB bans the use of illegal drugs! What is it people don't understand about that. Why don't we ask Tatis Jr. how he's doing right now?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by gonefishin

MLB bans the use of illegal drugs! What is it people don't understand about that.

I don't think anyone debates this or thinks otherwise.

[steve B]

One thing that's interesting is how differently fans of sports think of those caught.

Most US sports, it's almost a career ender. And many fans are unforgiving and/or can't appreciate what a player did before doping.

In many other sports, especially European ones, it's treated much differently. Player dopes, gets a year ban which can be appealed. If the reason is plausible and the athlete contrite, they may get it reduced. Even if it's not reduced, they take their year ban and are welcomed back afterwards.
Sort of an "aw shucks, you caught me, I'll take a year off"
They may not come back to the same team, or in the same prominent role immediately, but they do come back with few problems.

Totally different if the reason is wildly implausible. So steroids from meat sent by fans is forgivable, but excess body chemicals from a hidden conjoined twin that was never brought up until getting caught and that they present no evidence for is very much not OK. (Yeah, some crazy excuses. )
The UCI at a minimum tracks riders in the offseason, location who they're with, must report for random testing within a few hours. They publish a list with the riders categorized by how suspect they are. That categorization determines how often someone gets tested.
And still... One of my favorites was always listed on the squeaky clean not at all suspect list while regularly beating the highly suspect by large margins.
Mid career he was accused of being an early user of hidden electric motors, but the available ones at the time were too noisy and no evidence was found.

[smokinjoe]

The whole PED thing is actually irrelevant. It makes great fodder for folks to argue and debate about but at the end of the day every era had its own share of players trying to "game it" whether through PEDS, greenies, coke, ball doctoring, bat loading or corking.. you name it they did it. And in every era it was never brougfht up until MLB decided that the bad press was bad for the establishment. MLB has never made decisions based on good of the game, only good for MLB. At the end of the day players just built better mousetraps....

While Clemens, Bonds and many others may or may not have egaged in the use of steroids (never tested, so never tested positive) their accomplishments can not be just deleted from history as society wants to do with everything else tahat is feels is controversial.

The same media that is bashing some players and not others with either reasonable suspision or actual failed tests and bans are the same ones who with the same reasonable suspisions were hailing the players as saviors of the sport during their playing years.


As for Clemens himself, he is statistics clearly show that he was one of the top 5-6 pitchers in baseball history. Many dominant years and longevity (regardless whether PEDS helped)