Pujols, Mr. September

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Pujols is where he is on the RBI list because of Trout. He spent several years as a DH/1B with a below average bat but still getting RBI’s because the Angels kept him hitting behind Trout who gets on base at an absurd rate.

I don’t see how this can be argued, on reasonable factual grounds, to be false.

I remember Bill James ran some simulation where he replaced one of the KC Royals with a hypothetical batter who walked every time. All else being equal, the guy batting behind him, who was just an average player, had something like 160 RBI lol. Of course it matters.

[ClementeFanOh]

Dear God- "mountain, meet mole hill"

1) There is no conspiracy about Pujols reaching HR history. There wasn't a
secret meeting of the pitcher's union in which they voted to groove
pitches, so he could reach a milestone while they become answers to
obscure trivia questions.

2) Albert Pujols has reached his achievements because of his OWN
performance. The RBI total certainly is influenced by who bats ahead of
him- as it is for every single player. He doesn't make out the lineup cards
and does not control who reaches base in front of him, who the opposing
pitcher is, etc. Yes, several of his Angels years were below average- for
him!- as he got older. I continue to be amazed that some "fans" continue
to be befuddled by the reality that the skill of most professional athletes,
even great ones, diminishes with age. Google machine reveals a career
average of 296 with 2000+ RBI and 700+ HR. He's Mickey Mantle with
175 more HR and 500+ more RBI (and save it, I know they played
different positions and different amounts of seasons- point is he's been a
killer player).

3) The problem with dissecting something is that it's dead when you're
done. Give it a rest!


Trent King

[Republicaninmass]

Now draft kings has a partnership with ESPN.

Expect the unexpected!

[G1911]

Pujols years were not below average “for him”, he has been below league average offense for several years. More if you’re only looking at 1B and DH. “Google machine” will turn this data up as well.

RBI totals are not really the product of individual performance. Pujols got a great gift in Trout. Many, even most, milestones and records have been aided by favorable circumstances. Such is reality.

Pujols is a legendary player, a first ballot of famer, and my bias leans towards his favor. But dismissing a rather unlikely event of several pitchers non conspiratorially juicing him balls repeatedly with runners on base can be done without insisting on things that are plainly false. People love to just take the most opposite argument possible instead of actually staying within the bounds of evidence and reason.

[frankbmd]

The fix was in, but it couldn't happen to a nicer guy.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I will grant that it's hard to fathom a plot, but at the same time it's just hard to accept that in the natural course of things, a 45 year old or whatever he is who has been pretty bad for a long time comes up with a 9 HR 27 RBI month and finishes with 9 RBI in four games when he just happens to be chasing HR and RBI milestones. That's all I have to say about it. Good discussion, good points raised.

[ClementeFanOh]

1911-

"People love to just take the most opposite argument possible instead of
actually staying within the bounds of evidence and reason." It's amusing
that YOU typed that statement with a straight face. you desperately need
to look up the meaning of "self awareness", partner...

You have this funny habit of quoting specific stats and refusing to consider
context, or ANY data that tends to unseat your position. (You also enjoy
portraying yourself as somehow neutral and objective in your proclamations,
although many seem to have a derisive quality about them.) It all goes
with your "I am always right, just ask me and I'll confirm it" mantra. It
would work so darn well if you were the czar but, alas...

And yes, many of Pujols' Angels years were indeed below average for him-
period. You worship stat lines, look it up. Doesn't mean he isn't a great
player. It means he is human. Pretty sure your guy Babe Ruth "got a gift" of
some pretty fair teammates to hit in, yes? (I know how you slob over the
Babe, so I genuflected before I typed his name). So yes, Captain Obvious,
players who accumulate lots of RBIs must have baserunners on in order to
accomplish that task- glad you cleared that up for everyone. It's that pesky
little task of actually doing it, that separates some players from others.

Trent King

By the way, it's completely unsurprising that you whiffed on the "Google
machine" comment. You truly think that's what I believe it's called! Perfect.

[Peter_Spaeth]

So we're now explaining the second half of Pujols' career by saying he's "human." LOL why can't people just accept what the numbers show, that he had an unreal first half, a mostly average second half, and that his RBI totals benefited greatly from hitting behind Trout? These are just facts, there's no emotion in them. Why would anyone take offense?

BTW how many all star teams did Pujols make in the last 12 years? 2, including this year which was honorary as he had a bad first half. Just showing he was human I guess.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

1911-

"People love to just take the most opposite argument possible instead of
actually staying within the bounds of evidence and reason." It's amusing
that YOU typed that statement with a straight face. you desperately need
to look up the meaning of "self awareness", partner...

You have this funny habit of quoting specific stats and refusing to consider
context, or ANY data that tends to unseat your position. (You also enjoy
portraying yourself as somehow neutral and objective in your proclamations,
although many seem to have a derisive quality about them.) It all goes
with your "I am always right, just ask me and I'll confirm it" mantra. It
would work so darn well if you were the czar but, alas...

And yes, many of Pujols' Angels years were indeed below average for him-
period. You worship stat lines, look it up. Doesn't mean he isn't a great
player. It means he is human. Pretty sure your guy Babe Ruth "got a gift" of
some pretty fair teammates to hit in, yes? (I know how you slob over the
Babe, so I genuflected before I typed his name). So yes, Captain Obvious,
players who accumulate lots of RBIs must have baserunners on in order to
accomplish that task- glad you cleared that up for everyone. It's that pesky
little task of actually doing it, that separates some players from others.

Trent King

By the way, it's completely unsurprising that you whiffed on the "Google
machine" comment. You truly think that's what I believe it's called! Perfect.

You got butthurt after Pujols RBI’s were put into context. “Google machine” is exactly what you called it. That is a quote. I never said Pujols isn’t a great player, if you ever finish Hooked on Phonics and learn to read, you will see that I said the exact opposite and called him legendary and a first ballot hall of famer. Again, you’re just lying and making crap up that is directly contradictory to the transcript.

I have hardly ever said anything about Ruth on here at all, so you’re making crap up again, but Gehrig hit behind him as I recall, not in front.