Hall of Fame Ballot Announced

BioCRN · #1 11-12-2022, 01:35 AM

Ah, a good ol' Curt "Schrodinger's HOF'r" Schilling discussion.

Great pitcher, especially considering he didn't fully figure it out until his late 20s. Shame he decided to alienate reporters and a few million other people as a post-career hobby.

Maybe we'll have less of this kind of thing in the future.

I'm more interested in how the committee will treat Bonds and Clemens.

Exhibitman · #2 11-12-2022, 05:48 AM

Ahh, enough time wasted on Schilling. He isn't disliked because he is a vocal Republican; he is disliked because he is a vocal asshole.

Let's talk Kenny Lofton. No character knocks on him. I absolutely hated seeing him come to the plate against teams I liked. I think the issue with him, frankly, is that he played a position at the time that always made him the third-best CF, behind Kirby Puckett and Ken Griffey Jr. Third fiddle in an orchestra with Jascha Heifetz and Izhak Perlman is pretty, pretty good, but won't get you the attention. The other issue was that he hung on after he'd lost a step or two and went from all-world to very good. I think that hurts his candidacy as it does Mattingly, Belle and Murphy. None of which I'd have an issue seeing in the HOF, but none of whom were anywhere near as valuable to their teams over their careers as Lofton was to his teams. His #s put him squarely in the middle of CFs in the HOF, just a tad below their average. His modern-style numbers are better than those three by a lot, but are a completely different mix of components.

cgjackson222 · #3 11-12-2022, 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Ahh, enough time wasted on Schilling. He isn't disliked because he is a vocal Republican; he is disliked because he is a vocal asshole.

Let's talk Kenny Lofton. No character knocks on him. I absolutely hated seeing him come to the plate against teams I liked. I think the issue with him, frankly, is that he played a position at the time that always made him the third-best CF, behind Kirby Puckett and Ken Griffey Jr. Third fiddle in an orchestra with Jascha Heifetz and Izhak Perlman is pretty, pretty good, but won't get you the attention. The other issue was that he hung on after he'd lost a step or two and went from all-world to very good. I think that hurts his candidacy as it does Mattingly, Belle and Murphy. None of which I'd have an issue seeing in the HOF, but none of whom were anywhere near as valuable to their teams over their careers as Lofton was to his teams. His #s put him squarely in the middle of CFs in the HOF, just a tad below their average. His modern-style numbers are better than those three by a lot, but are a completely different mix of components.

Agreed!!

Lofton is a top 10 Centerfielder in WAR and JAWS, ahead of such Hall of Famers as Andre Dawson, Richie Ashburn, and Kirby Puckett. I think he gets overlooked because he didn't have a lot of black ink, as he only led the league in stolen bases (5x in a row), triples (1�) and hits (1x), and nothing in the last decade of his career. So unlike a lot of the short peak, low WAR guys up for a vote (Murphy, Mattingly, Belle) the highest he finished in MVP voting was 4th and 11th. It should be noted that in 1994, when Lofton finished 4th in MVP, he actually led the American League in WAR with 7.2.

He also didn't win a World Series or play particularly well in the playoffs. Note that neither Murphy, Mattingly, or Palmeiro ever made it to the World Series, and Belle played on the same '95 WS team as Lofton (Lofton also got to the WS with San Francisco in 2002).

I think Kenny Lofton is underrated as a fielder. He won 4 Gold Gloves, but probably deserved more. His career dWAR is 15.5. To put that in perspective, Andruw Jones and Willie Mays, widely regarded as the best fielding CFs ever have 24.4 and 18.2 respectively. 10x Gold Glove winner Ken Griffey Jr. has a career dWAR of 2.2, 8x Gold Glove winner Jim Edmonds has a career dWAR of 6.4.

If you care about overall career value, Lofton should be in.

Mike D. · #4 11-12-2022, 09:35 AM

I agree on Lofton being a good candidate and perhaps the best "one and done" candidate ever.

He didn't have any controversy during his playing career, but last year there was this:

https://www.latimes.com/california/s...ton%20co%2Down

My read on it is that it's not really a big thing...some employees had access to someplace he shared nude pictures in private messages....more dumb than evil.

ejharrington · #5 11-12-2022, 10:25 AM

Curt is a clear cut HOFer.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_P.shtml

Jim65 · #6 11-12-2022, 10:30 AM

There are bad guys in the HOF, drug smugglers, players who beat up fans, punched umpires, spit in umpires face, racists, admitted cheaters, players who beat their wives, etc. Schilling's crime are words, he wouldn't be close to the worst guy in the HOF, if elected.

Mike D. · #7 11-12-2022, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim65

There are bad guys in the HOF, drug smugglers, players who beat up fans, punched umpires, spit in umpires face, racists, admitted cheaters, players who beat their wives, etc. Schilling's crime are words, he wouldn't be close to the worst guy in the HOF, if elected.

I tend to agree that we need to define the Hall of Fame by what a player does on the field. It's not realistic to play "morality police" and we can recognize a player's greatness on the field while not claiming they are saints.

bbcard1 · #8 11-12-2022, 11:36 AM

Let me throw a name out there...I am completely a supporter of Lofton and Sweet Lou getting another look, but no one ever mentions Rick Rueschel. Talk about someone who doesn't pass the eyeball test, but the stats are right there in comparison to the mid-level HOF pitcher. Despite pitching for poor teams he has a 69.5 WAR (34th among starter) and is statistically ahead of several hall of famers. One of the better one and done candidates.

Mark17 · #9 11-12-2022, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike D.

I tend to agree that we need to define the Hall of Fame by what a player does on the field. It's not realistic to play "morality police" and we can recognize a player's greatness on the field while not claiming they are saints.

Hypothetical to see if there are limits to what you say. Suppose OJ Simpson had decapitated 2 people shortly after retiring. Should he still have been voted into the football HOF?

Some people think Joe Jackson and Pete Rose should be in the Hall based on their play. So, I'm wondering, aren't there some non-playing things that do, and should, disqualify someone from HOF consideration?

Tabe · #10 11-12-2022, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

Agreed!!

Lofton is a top 10 Centerfielder in WAR and JAWS, ahead of such Hall of Famers as Andre Dawson, Richie Ashburn, and Kirby Puckett. I think he gets overlooked because he didn't have a lot of black ink, as he only led the league in stolen bases (5x in a row), triples (1�) and hits (1x), and nothing in the last decade of his career. So unlike a lot of the short peak, low WAR guys up for a vote (Murphy, Mattingly, Belle) the highest he finished in MVP voting was 4th and 11th. It should be noted that in 1994, when Lofton finished 4th in MVP, he actually led the American League in WAR with 7.2.

He also didn't win a World Series or play particularly well in the playoffs. Note that neither Murphy, Mattingly, or Palmeiro ever made it to the World Series, and Belle played on the same '95 WS team as Lofton (Lofton also got to the WS with San Francisco in 2002).

I think Kenny Lofton is underestimated as a fielder. He won 4 Gold Gloves, but probably deserved more. His career dWAR is 15.5. To put that in perspective, Andruw Jones and Willie Mays, widely regarded as the best fielding CFs ever have 24.4 and 18.2 respectively. 10x Gold Glove winner Ken Griffey Jr. has a career dWAR of 2.2, 8x Gold Glove winner Jim Edmonds has a career dWAR of 6.4.

If you care about overall career value, Lofton should be in.

Lofton never really struck me as a HOFer when he played but I'd be OK with him getting in. Jim Edmonds is a guy I don't understand not being in. Elite defender at a premium position, twice hit 40 homers, 393 career homers, 132 OPS+. That reads like a HOF resume to me.

Mike D. · #11 11-12-2022, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tabe

Lofton never really struck me as a HOFer when he played but I'd be OK with him getting in. Jim Edmonds is a guy I don't understand not being in. Elite defender at a premium position, twice hit 40 homers, 393 career homers, 132 OPS+. That reads like a HOF resume to me.

Yes, Edmonds is another good candidate. His WAR is significantly lower than Lofton's, but still well within the range of a Hall of Fame center fielder.

tod41 · #12 11-12-2022, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tabe

Lofton never really struck me as a HOFer when he played but I'd be OK with him getting in. Jim Edmonds is a guy I don't understand not being in. Elite defender at a premium position, twice hit 40 homers, 393 career homers, 132 OPS+. That reads like a HOF resume to me.

With all these relooks, Keith Hernandez should be seriously considered. His metrics are better than Mattingly's.

ejharrington · #13 11-12-2022, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tod41

With all these relooks, Keith Hernandez should be seriously considered. His metrics are better than Mattingly's.

100% agree.

Carter08 · #14 11-12-2022, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ejharrington

100% agree.

Hernandez meets the eye test.

Tabe · #15 11-12-2022, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tod41

With all these relooks, Keith Hernandez should be seriously considered. His metrics are better than Mattingly's.

I just don't see the case for Hernandez. Not much power, hit below .300, less than 2200 hits, etc. I know he's got all the Gold Gloves but, at the end of the day, 1B isn't a premium defensive position and dWAR doesn't like him that much. And, really, if you're putting in Hernandez, how do you leave out John Olerud?

cgjackson222 · #16 11-12-2022, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tabe

I just don't see the case for Hernandez. Not much power, hit below .300, less than 2200 hits, etc. I know he's got all the Gold Gloves but, at the end of the day, 1B isn't a premium defensive position and dWAR doesn't like him that much. And, really, if you're putting in Hernandez, how do you leave out John Olerud?

John Olerud was a fine player, but Hernandez was better.
Hernandez won an MVP with the Cardinals and finished 2nd in the voting with the Mets, followed by two more top 10 finishes. He was an all star 5x. 11 Gold Gloves.

Olerud was a 2x All-Star who only got MVP votes twice. 3 Gold Gloves.

Hernadez' WAR and JAWS are higher than Olerud as well.

Keith's appearance on Seinfeld and the fact that he is one of the better announcers doesn't hurt.

kmac32 · #17 11-13-2022, 06:28 PM

If you excuse the Steroid allegations, only Bonds and Clemons from this group. The other guys were great players and great skills but fall short of what is required for HOF enshrinement. Shilling is out because he fails as a human being in my opinion.

rhettyeakley · #18 11-12-2022, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Ahh, enough time wasted on Schilling. He isn't disliked because he is a vocal Republican; he is disliked because he is a vocal asshole.

Let's talk Kenny Lofton. No character knocks on him. I absolutely hated seeing him come to the plate against teams I liked. I think the issue with him, frankly, is that he played a position at the time that always made him the third-best CF, behind Kirby Puckett and Ken Griffey Jr. Third fiddle in an orchestra with Jascha Heifetz and Izhak Perlman is pretty, pretty good, but won't get you the attention. The other issue was that he hung on after he'd lost a step or two and went from all-world to very good. I think that hurts his candidacy as it does Mattingly, Belle and Murphy. None of which I'd have an issue seeing in the HOF, but none of whom were anywhere near as valuable to their teams over their careers as Lofton was to his teams. His #s put him squarely in the middle of CFs in the HOF, just a tad below their average. His modern-style numbers are better than those three by a lot, but are a completely different mix of components.

I agree! I have always liked Lofton and never really understood why he hasn�t rec�d more support.

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