Every slabbed card has a story, don't it?

tlhss · #1 01-17-2024, 04:48 PM

I'm not a graded card guy (I'm too cheap), but I did find this interesting.

Title of video: "Honus Wagner 1911 - Restoration and Re-Grade"

Grading terms and condition on SGC website: "7. Customer agrees not to knowingly submit cards to SGC that bear evidence of trimming, recoloring, restoration or any other form of tampering, or are of questionable authenticity, as determined in the sole judgment of SGC (�Altered Cards�)."

It seems that Kurt is in violation of SGC Terms and Conditions, and actually made it very public

I'm not debating what folks do with their cards. I just found the wording interesting.

Snowman · #2 01-17-2024, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tlhss

I'm not a graded card guy (I'm too cheap), but I did find this interesting.

Title of video: "Honus Wagner 1911 - Restoration and Re-Grade"

Grading terms and condition on SGC website: "7. Customer agrees not to knowingly submit cards to SGC that bear evidence of trimming, recoloring, restoration or any other form of tampering, or are of questionable authenticity, as determined in the sole judgment of SGC (�Altered Cards�)."

It seems that Kurt is in violation of SGC Terms and Conditions, and actually made it very public

I'm not debating what folks do with their cards. I just found the wording interesting.

This is not restoration. It is removal. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with what Kurt did to this card. All he did was effectively wipe off some boogers that the original submitter should have removed prior to sending it to PSA.

You could send this video to SGC and they arent' going to care one bit.

4815162342 · #3 01-17-2024, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

This is not restoration. It is removal. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with what Kurt did to this card. All he did was effectively wipe off some boogers that the original submitter should have removed prior to sending it to PSA.

You could send this video to SGC and they arent' going to care one bit.

He did just a tad more than wipe off boogers with the �86 Fleer Jordan.

https://youtu.be/LWuaizTLJfQ?si=rKY6WLGzavbpIQhy

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Eric72 · #4 01-17-2024, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

...there is absolutely nothing wrong with what Kurt did to this card...

It's not surprising to see you write this.

Snowman · #5 01-17-2024, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric72

It's not surprising to see you write this.

And it's not surprising to see a bunch of boomers in here screaming at clouds again. Like it or not, cleaning a baseball card is not a crime, and it's also allowed by every single TPG. The majority of vintage cards that have any sort of eye appeal at all have been cleaned. If you aren't OK with that, then you should just sell your collection right now, because nobody else cares. In fact most collectors would prefer them cleaned.

bmattioli · #6 01-17-2024, 06:04 PM

Comics are cleaned and pressed all the time..

vintagerookies51 · #7 01-17-2024, 06:21 PM

Yeah, not sure if we�re supposed to be upset about this? As far as I�m concerned, it�s removing stuff that got there after the card was made, making it even closer to its original authentic state. Cool stuff

Eric72 · #8 01-17-2024, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

And it's not surprising to see a bunch of boomers in here screaming at clouds again. Like it or not, cleaning a baseball card is not a crime, and it's also allowed by every single TPG. The majority of vintage cards that have any sort of eye appeal at all have been cleaned. If you aren't OK with that, then you should just sell your collection right now, because nobody else cares. In fact most collectors would prefer them cleaned.

I'm not a boomer, though there are some on here.
I'm not screaming at anything, so I'm not sure to whom you were referring.
Yes, I'm aware cleaning a card is not criminal behavior.
I doubt "every single TPG" allows cleaning. They're not always able to detect it, though.
How would you know what the majority of vintage cards have been through?
I'm not selling anything just because of something written by a snowman on a message board
I doubt most collectors of vintage material would prefer their cards cleaned. Someone should start a poll on here.

Peter_Spaeth · #9 01-17-2024, 07:10 PM

I'd like to know what is in these allegedly natural proprietary solutions this dude is using and selling. And no, I don't want cards cleaned in them, but realistically it's probably hard to detect unless something like bleach or the equivalent is used to create an artificially bright appearance.

The prevailing ethos may well be moving towards the comics model where a lot of things are acceptable.

campyfan39 · #10 01-17-2024, 08:14 PM

Once grading got involved in was inevitable.
We will see lots of people able to get out major creases, ink etc. and nobody ever know. I don't necessarily have a problem with it. That's probably because I don't have cards graded.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I'd like to know what is in these allegedly natural proprietary solutions this dude is using and selling. And no, I don't want cards cleaned in them, but realistically it's probably hard to detect unless something like bleach or the equivalent is used to create an artificially bright appearance.

The prevailing ethos may well be moving towards the comics model where a lot of things are acceptable.

G1911 · #11 01-17-2024, 08:29 PM

Kurts has done far more than this. I've seen their crease/dent/corner fixes on the Discords. I get that we want to separate water from chemicals but what, half this board has done basically the same thing that's in this particular video?

Obviously it is not a crime to alter a card and nobody thinks it is - selling it while covering that up and not disclosing the truth can be.

Of course, this problem all goes away if people just stop playing the game. At least half the people on the anti-alteration side seem to collect and pay premiums for PSA, SGC, et al. As long as we have incompetent graders founded on the myth of an altered card, and most people paying far more money for a made up higher number on their slab than a similarly made up lower one, this is the inevitable result. If folks stopped playing this stupid game, there wouldn't be so many stupid prizes. The game will continue as long as the vast majority are playing this game when they vote with their wallets, if not the mouth.

I am more bothered by the grading companies completely lying about the grade to juice a card (see the last BN Ruth, the 9.5 Mantle, that recent T206 Wagner, etc.) or changing grades for certain submitters and former employees than I am that they cannot tell what is altered and don't put much value on improving that situation.

And that's why I have stacks of raw cards with creases and stains and boogers laying around my desk. If someone has removed a crease, they got nothing out of doing it and it doesn't affect me any.

doug.goodman · #12 01-17-2024, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

...and it's also allowed by every single TPG...

The opinion sellers allow anything as long as they get paid.

jchcollins · #13 01-17-2024, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

You could send this video to SGC and they arent' going to care one bit.

Yep. They already know about it. I'd be floored if they somehow didn't. Their answer is going to be if there is not evidence of alteration when inspected for grading - then a card is not altered.

As was also pointed out, SGC and others have in the fine print that you can't "knowingly" submit altered cards, but clearly it's never been a policy to police this. How would that remotely be in their interests? On the assumption that many people unknowingly submit altered cards, they have a wide range of services to accommodate that, which includes still getting your card slabbed with a nice explanation of what you didn't know (wink wink) when you subbed it on the flip.

steve B · #14 01-18-2024, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

This is not restoration. It is removal. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with what Kurt did to this card. All he did was effectively wipe off some boogers that the original submitter should have removed prior to sending it to PSA.

You could send this video to SGC and they arent' going to care one bit.

Go look at his videos.
Removing gunk is ok, not sure just what his formula is, but I'd be concerned about how it affects things long term.

But the fixing creases, corner dings edge dents... no, that's not ok.
One pic on his site shows a 74 Topps with at least one entirely rebuilt corner.

Pat R · #15 01-18-2024, 09:42 AM

To each his own. Personally I don't have a problem with someone removing something that wasn't on a card when it was printed. I do find some of the after grades questionable though.

Does anyone want to take a guess on the before and after grades on this one?

Dahlen Sov 350.jpg

Dahlen Sov 350 back.jpg

GasHouseGang · #16 01-18-2024, 10:52 AM

One question. What was it soaked in? Water or some "miracle" cleanser? I have a feeling your going to tell us it went from a 2 to a 1.5 since it now has paper loss on the back.

Pat R · #17 01-18-2024, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

One question. What was it soaked in? Water or some "miracle" cleanser? I have a feeling your going to tell us it went from a 2 to a 1.5 since it now has paper loss on the back.

Hey David. I never owned the card so I have no idea what was used on it.

You're correct on the before grade.

Pat R · #18 01-19-2024, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

One question. What was it soaked in? Water or some "miracle" cleanser? I have a feeling your going to tell us it went from a 2 to a 1.5 since it now has paper loss on the back.

I'm glad that you noticed it but I find it hard to believe that the grader didn't see it.

Dahlen 2 to 5.jpg

Fred · #19 01-18-2024, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat R

To each his own. Personally I don't have a problem with someone removing something that wasn't on a card when it was printed. I do find some of the after grades questionable though.

Does anyone want to take a guess on the before and after grades on this one?

I'm hoping this is one of those trick questions and we all get an answer that most people would like to see, for example BEFORE: 2.5, AFTER: AUTH

Probably not...

jchcollins · #20 01-18-2024, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve B

Go look at his videos.
But the fixing creases, corner dings edge dents... no, that's not ok.
One pic on his site shows a 74 Topps with at least one entirely rebuilt corner.

Not totally disagreeing with you, but what if that stuff can be made to disappear and there is no chemical residue or detectable signs of alteration on the card?

Rebuilt corner, maybe - but how? Not for profit or anything other than purposes of my own experimentation, but I have gotten a crunched corner back to NM appearing state on a junk era card before using nothing more than his spray and a few minutes time. By �rebuilt corner� I�m thinking many are envisioning razors and glue and donor cardboard. That�s not at all what Kurt does or teaches.

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steve B · #21 01-19-2024, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Not totally disagreeing with you, but what if that stuff can be made to disappear and there is no chemical residue or detectable signs of alteration on the card?

Rebuilt corner, maybe - but how? Not for profit or anything other than purposes of my own experimentation, but I have gotten a crunched corner back to NM appearing state on a junk era card before using nothing more than his spray and a few minutes time. By �rebuilt corner� I�m thinking many are envisioning razors and glue and donor cardboard. That�s not at all what Kurt does or teaches.

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Here's a screenshot of the 74 with the rebuilt corner.
No way that's a bit of water and poking with a stick.

jchcollins · #22 01-19-2024, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve B

Here's a screenshot of the 74 with the rebuilt corner.
No way that's a bit of water and poking with a stick.

Maybe, maybe not. I didn't see what he did on those particular cards, but can tell you his MO is not alteration that involves cutting stuff up, or adding things that are not there.

I did his corner trick using only the spray and a cotton applicator on a 1984 Donruss card, and even with references to the pics you attached - let's just say you would be surprised. I'd be glad to hand you as stack of '84 Donruss cards and invite you to point out the one I worked on. You wouldn't be able to.

People can think that cleaning or "corner improvement" is alteration all they want, but at the end of the day it's all a moot point if no residue or trace is left behind; if nothing is added or removed. A TPG is not going to call a card like that altered, nor should they.

Snowman · #23 01-18-2024, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve B

Go look at his videos.
Removing gunk is ok, not sure just what his formula is, but I'd be concerned about how it affects things long term.

But the fixing creases, corner dings edge dents... no, that's not ok.
One pic on his site shows a 74 Topps with at least one entirely rebuilt corner.

Taking a card with a bent up corner and pushing it back down flat is not making a "rebuilt corner". Rebuilding corners is something entirely different that requires making new card stock and adding it to the card. That's alteration and it's detectable. Let's not pretend that pushing down a bent up corner with your finger is the same thing. I'd wager every penny I've ever made that even YOU (and every single person in this entire hobby) has accidentally dinged a corner and tried to bend it back with their finger multiple times over the years.

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