Every slabbed card has a story, don't it?

[G1911]

Kurts has done far more than this. I've seen their crease/dent/corner fixes on the Discords. I get that we want to separate water from chemicals but what, half this board has done basically the same thing that's in this particular video?

Obviously it is not a crime to alter a card and nobody thinks it is - selling it while covering that up and not disclosing the truth can be.

Of course, this problem all goes away if people just stop playing the game. At least half the people on the anti-alteration side seem to collect and pay premiums for PSA, SGC, et al. As long as we have incompetent graders founded on the myth of an altered card, and most people paying far more money for a made up higher number on their slab than a similarly made up lower one, this is the inevitable result. If folks stopped playing this stupid game, there wouldn't be so many stupid prizes. The game will continue as long as the vast majority are playing this game when they vote with their wallets, if not the mouth.

I am more bothered by the grading companies completely lying about the grade to juice a card (see the last BN Ruth, the 9.5 Mantle, that recent T206 Wagner, etc.) or changing grades for certain submitters and former employees than I am that they cannot tell what is altered and don't put much value on improving that situation.

And that's why I have stacks of raw cards with creases and stains and boogers laying around my desk. If someone has removed a crease, they got nothing out of doing it and it doesn't affect me any.

[jchcollins]

I can understand those on the side of concluding that Kurt is altering cards, but in reality the "spray" (his other product, the polish - is not for vintage cards) is quick evaporating, and doesn't leave anything detectable on the cards. It just doesn't.

I bought some last year just out of morbid curiosity; not because I was interested in starting a card doctoring business. The spray is described as a "lubricant" by Kurt, and he claims it's all natural. Beyond that of course, he won't say what it is. It's not water, but it also doesn't smell overly chemical. I had moderate success with removing wrinkles (on lower grade vintage common cards in my PC), and more with things like making crunched corners sharp again - and in the end decided that while novel and certainly interesting, a future in using Kurt's products - even if only on my own cards - wasn't for me.

Just my two cents - but Kurt's methods are a sideshow right now, and very much a moot point when you have the top grading companies that cannot detect real alteration - trimming and other more heinous type things in many cases on expensive vintage cards. If the Gary Mosers of the world can get much worse stuff by PSA, then going after someone like Kurt - yes even if you consider it alteration - is going to be a huge waste of time. Another of his recommended tricks which involves putting a card in a humidor really does only use water - and under the right conditions - I would imagine a dent or wrinkle could also be removed from a card with humidity by accident in an attic or something. I don't see how anyone could claim that is alteration - although it's yet to be seen on a lot of those I think if the problem would somehow later "come back." But hey, some 1974 Kellogg's cards in PSA 10 slabs get exposed to temperature and humidity and wind up cracking later in the slab. They're still PSA 10's, right?

This debate will go on, but I would agree that current sentiment in the hobby may see things like some forms of out-of-the-closet restoration become acceptable. Again, I totally agree with the right of those who think it's wrong to hold their own opinions. As with many other things however, sometimes you can't do anything about it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

I can understand those on the side of concluding that Kurt is altering cards, but in reality the "spray" (his other product, the polish - is not for vintage cards) is quick evaporating, and doesn't leave anything detectable on the cards. It just doesn't.

I bought some last year just out of morbid curiosity; not because I was interested in starting a card doctoring business. The spray is described as a "lubricant" by Kurt, and he claims it's all natural. Beyond that of course, he won't say what it is. It's not water, but it also doesn't smell overly chemical. I had moderate success with removing wrinkles (on lower grade vintage common cards in my PC), and more with things like making crunched corners sharp again - and in the end decided that while novel and certainly interesting, a future in using Kurt's products - even if only on my own cards - wasn't for me.

Just my two cents - but Kurt's methods are a sideshow right now, and very much a moot point when you have the top grading companies that cannot detect real alteration - trimming and other more heinous type things in many cases on expensive vintage cards. If the Gary Mosers of the world can get much worse stuff by PSA, then going after someone like Kurt - yes even if you consider it alteration - is going to be a huge waste of time. Another of his recommended tricks which involves putting a card in a humidor really does only use water - and under the right conditions - I would imagine a dent or wrinkle could also be removed from a card with humidity by accident in an attic or something. I don't see how anyone could claim that is alteration - although it's yet to be seen on a lot of those I think if the problem would somehow later "come back." But hey, some Kellogg's cards in PSA 10 slabs get exposed to temperature and humidity and wind up cracking later in the slab. They're still PSA 10's, right?

This debate will go on, but I would agree that current sentiment in the hobby may see things like some forms of out-of-the-closet restoration become acceptable. Again, I totally agree with the right of those who think it's wrong to hold their own opinions. As with many other things however, sometimes you can't do anything about it.

No one is going after the trimmers of the world either. Just buying their cards. Or taking them on consignment. They won. Long live the flip.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

No one is going after the trimmers of the world either. Just buying their cards. Or taking them on consignment. They won. Long live the flip.

I just meant going after them here. I respect the main board opinions, lol.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ejharrington]

Water is a chemical. I don't see how dropping a piece of cardboard in water doesn't alter the chemistry of the card. Looking at the before and after photos of the front of the card, the after photo is less vibrant, higher grade notwithstanding.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by ejharrington

Water is a chemical. I don't see how dropping a piece of cardboard in water doesn't alter the chemistry of the card. Looking at the before and after photos of the front of the card, the after photo is less vibrant, higher grade notwithstanding.

You can't look at two pictures of a card taken at different times with different settings on different equipment and determine anything about changes in color.

Kurt's card spray doesn't affect the color of a card at all (it's mostly distilled water). Neither does dihydrogen monoxide.

I have no idea what you mean when you say that soaking a card in water "alters the chemistry of the card", and neither do you.

[nwobhm]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I have no idea what you mean when you say that soaking a card in water "alters the chemistry of the card", and neither do you.

Soaking a card in water changes the moisture content.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

Soaking a card in water changes the moisture content.

That's why you let it dry lol

Also, so does moving from Vegas to New Orleans.

Soaking paper in water does not damage it in any way. Museums soak documents that are far more precious than any of our beloved sports cards all the time. The US Constitution, Biblical scrolls, Shakespeare's original writings, etc. These are all cleaned and preserved using the same techniques.

[ejharrington]

Originally Posted by Snowman

That's why you let it dry lol

Also, so does moving from Vegas to New Orleans.

Soaking paper in water does not damage it in any way. Museums soak documents that are far more precious than any of our beloved sports cards all the time. The US Constitution, Biblical scrolls, Shakespeare's original writings, etc. These are all cleaned and preserved using the same techniques.

It does alter the card and flushes out the color. Soaked cards are less vibrant.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by ejharrington

It does alter the card and flushes out the color. Soaked cards are less vibrant.

This is nonsense. You don't know what you're talking about.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Snowman

That's why you let it dry lol

Also, so does moving from Vegas to New Orleans.

Soaking paper in water does not damage it in any way. Museums soak documents that are far more precious than any of our beloved sports cards all the time. The US Constitution, Biblical scrolls, Shakespeare's original writings, etc. These are all cleaned and preserved using the same techniques.

And that's all done with materials and processes that are proven to do no long term damage.

Not some mystery stuff hawked by someone who seems to have profit as their primary goal.

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

Soaking a card in water changes the moisture content.

I don't normally jump into these arguments, but I agree with Snowman. The water does not alter the 'chemistry' of the wood fibers that make up the paper. The paper is still paper, whether it is wet or not. It may be easier to say the 'structure' of the molecules that make up the card are not changed. No chemical reaction has occurred which changes the paper into something else. After the card is dried it is still a card made of paper and ink.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Michael B

I don't normally jump into these arguments, but I agree with Snowman. The water does not alter the 'chemistry' of the wood fibers that make up the paper. The paper is still paper, whether it is wet or not. It may be easier to say the 'structure' of the molecules that make up the card are not changed. No chemical reaction has occurred which changes the paper into something else. After the card is dried it is still a card made of paper and ink.

People often fear that which they don't understand or can't explain. They just assume that soaking a card in water will damage it and then attempt to justify their position because it just feels wrong to them. The hobby is like a religion to some with viewpoints that cannot be challenged.

The ironic part to me is that these same people are completely fine with collectors putting their grimy oily fingers with French-fry grease, dirt, snot, and god knows what else all over their cards, as if none of those substances "alter" the card. But the moment you talk about removing any of that or of even just water touching the card, they completely lose their marbles as they chant "ALTERATION!!!" and start calling for heads to roll. I honestly find it hilarious.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

You can't look at two pictures of a card taken at different times with different settings on different equipment and determine anything about changes in color.

Kurt's card spray doesn't affect the color of a card at all (it's mostly distilled water). Neither does dihydrogen monoxide.

I have no idea what you mean when you say that soaking a card in water "alters the chemistry of the card", and neither do you.

Do you use his products? Sounds like you have first hand knowledge.

[GasHouseGang]

How did you go from a corner that appears to be missing paper to the nice complete corner?

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

How did you go from a corner that appears to be missing paper to the nice complete corner?

I think that's a stain/dirt.

[GasHouseGang]

Originally Posted by Pat R

I think that's a stain/dirt.

Could be, that's why I asked. It's hard to tell for sure from the picture.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Do you use his products? Sounds like you have first hand knowledge.

I use distilled water. It does the same thing though. You don't need some special formula to flatten out a bent corner. Honestly, this stuff isn't rocket science. Go take a card, toss it in a bowl of water, then let it dry between some paper towels and stick a book on top of it. I promise you'll change your mind afterward.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I use distilled water. It does the same thing though. You don't need some special formula to flatten out a bent corner. Honestly, this stuff isn't rocket science. Go take a card, toss it in a bowl of water, then let it dry between some paper towels and stick a book on top of it. I promise you'll change your mind afterward.

According to numerous collectors on this board, some cards do not soak well. Tossing certain cards in water would severely damage them.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Eric72

According to numerous collectors on this board, some cards do not soak well. Tossing certain cards in water would severely damage them.

While it is true that some cards do not soak well, I can assure you that most of the people expressing opinions on this board do not know what they are talking about. Most of the claims I've read on this board about certain cards not soaking well are false. Over 99% of vintage cards prior to ~1970 will soak perfectly fine and will not damage the cards at all. There are only a few sets for which this is not true, and for most of those you could debate if they even count as "baseball cards" to begin with.

From my observations on this board, I would estimate that about 80% of the time I read someone claiming that a certain card won't soak well, they're wrong and are simply repeating something they think they heard from someone else and have no experience actually doing it themselves.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I use distilled water. It does the same thing though. You don't need some special formula to flatten out a bent corner. Honestly, this stuff isn't rocket science. Go take a card, toss it in a bowl of water, then let it dry between some paper towels and stick a book on top of it. I promise you'll change your mind afterward.

I didn't ask about water. I asked about this dude's solutions. If you haven't used them and don't know what they're made of how do you know what they do or that they are the same as water? Your answer is a non sequitur.

[FrankWakefield]

+1 G1911

and

+1 Campy

[campyfan39]

This thread is fascinating and I hope it keeps going. I didn't know some of the stuff on his videos was even possible. This guy could literally make a living submitting cards he fixed. He has a surgeon's hand and the patience of Job! No way I have ether of those.

The best post on here IMO is the one I quoted part of. If people stopped participating in the pecker measuring contests (aka the registrys) then there would be no conversations about any of this.

Originally Posted by G1911

Of course, this problem all goes away if people just stop playing the game. At least half the people on the anti-alteration side seem to collect and pay premiums for PSA, SGC, et al. As long as we have incompetent graders founded on the myth of an altered card, and most people paying far more money for a made up higher number on their slab than a similarly made up lower one, this is the inevitable result. If folks stopped playing this stupid game, there wouldn't be so many stupid prizes. The game will continue as long as the vast majority are playing this game when they vote with their wallets, if not the mouth.

I am more bothered by the grading companies completely lying about the grade to juice a card (see the last BN Ruth, the 9.5 Mantle, that recent T206 Wagner, etc.) or changing grades for certain submitters and former employees than I am that they cannot tell what is altered and don't put much value on improving that situation.