Every slabbed card has a story, don't it?

[gunboat82]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

This whole thing seems to be much more a slippery slope about people being po'd at the INTENT of messing with cards than it is what was actually done in the final analysis to the physical card.

Yes, I think we agree that this debate is about intent, rather than a metaphysical debate about whether a card with a Dorito stain or booger can announce that it's been wiped clean. I'd disagree that focusing on intent sends us down a slippery slope. That particular battle line is drawn pretty clearly. If you mess with a card with the specific intent to conceal that fact from a third-party grader and/or potential buyer, then you're choosing to deceive others to advance your self-interest.

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Just based on the "act" of someone doing something which may or may not be illicit - then what is the point of all of this empty discussion and wasted emotion? Alteration has to be provable on a card later, or it isn't alteration, by any practical or realistic judgment. Period.

This is where we simply disagree. You're taking a purely consequentialist approach, i.e., if I can't prove you did it, and you're not saying whether you did, then it didn't happen and no one was harmed. I say that card doctors who profit from deception are still acting unethically, even if the target is oblivious.

Originally Posted by jchcollins

The cards as ephemera / artifacts are not logged upon some blockchain of history where you can go back and see what was or was not done to them over the course of their existence. They are not conscious beings who can say "Hey, a dealer pressed my left corner back down for a little bit too long at a show in 1982, maybe you should tell PSA I'm altered!"

I'll grant you the point that cards aren't sentient historians, but you seem to be spinning off into a separate discussion about whether the original deception is negated when the card changes hands among unwitting parties.

I'm not advocating for the unsuspecting guy who bought an improbably sharp PSA 9 from Probstein to flog himself and surrender the card to local authorities. I am advocating for full disclosure of known facts whenever possible, with varying degrees of moral culpability along the "blockchain."

Hypothetically speaking:

If Evan trims a card and sends it to PSA without disclosing what he did, then he's a cheat. It's clear-cut. "PSA will not grade cards that bear evidence of trimming, re-coloring, restoration, or any other forms of tampering, or are of questionable authenticity."

If PSA knows Evan trimmed the card but gives it a 9 anyway, then PSA is complicit in the fraud. If PSA doesn't know the card is trimmed and gives it a 9, then PSA's actions may fall somewhere on the negligence spectrum, but there's no ill intent.

If Probstein knows Evan trimmed the card and sells it as a PSA 9 without disclosing the known alteration, then he's complicit in Evan's fraud. Probstein might be tempted to argue that PSA's failure to detect the trimming absolves him of blame, but he'd be wrong. Another party's negligence doesn't mitigate Probstein's own knowledge and intent to deceive for profit. On the other hand, if Probstein suspects Evan trimmed the card but takes a "see no evil, hear no evil" approach, it becomes a moral gray area for Probstein.

If I buy the card from Probstein without knowledge that Evan trimmed it, I'm a blameless victim in the scheme, even when I go to re-sell it as a PSA 9. Now, if Evan tells me he trimmed it and I turn a blind eye because it's his word against PSA's, we're venturing into that gray area where self-interest leads to lame rationalizations. It might not be fraud, but it certainly raises an ethical eyebrow.

Finally, let's say Evan tells me he trimmed it, shows me a video of him doing it, and even points to unique markers that leave no doubt that he chopped that particular card before sending it off to PSA. If I sell you the PSA 9 slab without disclosing what Evan showed me, then I'm a PSA-10, PWCC-S Top 5% Certified scumbag, and I deserve to be tarred, feathered, and strung up by my thumbs.

That might not be a popular viewpoint, but I'm a little more Kant and a little less Rand.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by gunboat82

I'd disagree that focusing on intent sends us down a slippery slope. That particular battle line is drawn pretty clearly. If you mess with a card with the specific intent to conceal that fact from a third-party grader and/or potential buyer, then you're choosing to deceive others to advance your self-interest.

This is where we simply disagree. You're taking a purely consequentialist approach, i.e., if I can't prove you did it, and you're not saying whether you did, then it didn't happen and no one was harmed. I say that card doctors who profit from deception are still acting unethically, even if the target is oblivious.

I'll grant you the point that cards aren't sentient historians, but you seem to be spinning off into a separate discussion about whether the original deception is negated when the card changes hands among unwitting parties.

I'm not advocating for the unsuspecting guy who bought an improbably sharp PSA 9 from Probstein to flog himself and surrender the card to local authorities. I am advocating for full disclosure of known facts whenever possible, with varying degrees of moral culpability along the "blockchain."

Hypothetically speaking:

If Evan trims a card and sends it to PSA without disclosing what he did, then he's a cheat. It's clear-cut. "PSA will not grade cards that bear evidence of trimming, re-coloring, restoration, or any other forms of tampering, or are of questionable authenticity."

If PSA knows Evan trimmed the card but gives it a 9 anyway, then PSA is complicit in the fraud. If PSA doesn't know the card is trimmed and gives it a 9, then PSA's actions may fall somewhere on the negligence spectrum, but there's no ill intent.

If Probstein knows Evan trimmed the card and sells it as a PSA 9 without disclosing the known alteration, then he's complicit in Evan's fraud. Probstein might be tempted to argue that PSA's failure to detect the trimming absolves him of blame, but he'd be wrong. Another party's negligence doesn't mitigate Probstein's own knowledge and intent to deceive for profit. On the other hand, if Probstein suspects Evan trimmed the card but takes a "see no evil, hear no evil" approach, it becomes a moral gray area for Probstein.

If I buy the card from Probstein without knowledge that Evan trimmed it, I'm a blameless victim in the scheme, even when I go to re-sell it as a PSA 9. Now, if Evan tells me he trimmed it and I turn a blind eye because it's his word against PSA's, we're venturing into that gray area where self-interest leads to lame rationalizations. It might not be fraud, but it certainly raises an ethical eyebrow.

Finally, let's say Evan tells me he trimmed it, shows me a video of him doing it, and even points to unique markers that leave no doubt that he chopped that particular card before sending it off to PSA. If I sell you the PSA 9 slab without disclosing what Evan showed me, then I'm a PSA-10, PWCC-S Top 5% Certified scumbag, and I deserve to be tarred, feathered, and strung up by my thumbs.

That might not be a popular viewpoint, but I'm a little more Kant and a little less Rand.

The slippery slope is not about intent, no. I think we can all agree "Card Doctors Bad". Even I would concede that. The slippery slope right now is leveling accusations at someone of being a card doctor while throwing the need for physical proof out the window oh, just because "Card Doctors Bad." You guys can hold Kurt and his ilk in all the contempt you want, but at the end of the day - if with the techniques that now exist we cannot tell that he either added to or took away from the original physical card - then it's a hard case to prove that he's "definitely" a card doctor just because you don't like how a crease seemed to be quickly minimized, or that a corner can look that much better without using tools and glue. The proof has to be in the pudding here. Just because you think someone is a card doctor doing alteration, if there is no proof later that the card in question was altered, then can you say that for sure? That seems illogical at best.

Yes, if you don't say that you did it, and I can't prove that you did it, and some grading company either can't prove it, or more likely just doesn't care - that doesn't make things right, but my point is how often is this a situation of consequence in reality? Are you going to stop collecting cards just because you don't know either way on all the new cards you buy? I'm not. How often do you know the person or history of the specific piece of cardboard you are buying? Whether that is from Rick Probstein or Greg Morris or your LCS dealer 10 minutes away? How often do THEY know? They don't. People can fret over this, or they can get on with life and collect cards and enjoy the hobby. The truth is that the vast majority of time - you aren't going to know.

All of your Evan scenarios aside from I think 2B (PSA knows it's trimmed, and labels it as such - Authentic Altered) are in theory true - but in reality highly improbable. Neither of the two largest graders that deal with vintage cards (PSA and SGC) are in the business of detective operations to see who "intentionally" submits altered cards to them. It's a policy that's buried in the fine print somewhere, but realistically impossible to enforce unless they take time and resources away from their grading operations to go on an improbable witch hunt for card doctors. Ain't gonna happen. The rest are the same. Yeah, if we hear of impropriety in the process somewhere, we should probably throw up a red flag. But how often in reality are folks going to do that? You have to temper this whole "Card Doctors Bad" with reality. This is why the physical proof to me is so important. It's the whole essence of the extent to which people care or do not care about alteration as a real issue in this hobby, with some chance to actually DO something about it and not just be pissed and post on message boards about card doctors whose names we don't know being so awful.

Graders certainly aren't perfect but they at least attempt to set a standard for authentic and unaltered cards based on physical proof that isn't reliant on the telephone game and unrealistic proactive honesty for collectors such as some on this board to out bad characters and altered cards that otherwise we would never know about. They are if nothing more - a starting point for now despite their flaws, given the percentage of collectors that continue to heavily use them and collect / invest in cards that reside in their slabs.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by gunboat82

If you mess with a card with the specific intent to conceal that fact from a third-party grader and/or potential buyer, then you're choosing to deceive others to advance your self-interest.

There's nothing to conceal though lol. This is 100% allowed. How do you not get this? Do you also call people a fraudster for not revealing the fact that they washed their car prior to selling it to you? They didn't tell you because it is widely understood and accepted that cleaning cars is OK. If some paranoid schizophrenic decides that they don't want cars to be washed and that anyone doing so without concealing that fact was somehow a fraudster, the world doesn't have to cater to his delusional demands. They just roll their eyes, laugh at him and move along to someone living in the real world.

Don't be the paranoid schizophrenic of the hobby screaming at clouds.

[gunboat82]

We're not going to see eye to eye here, so I'll just respond to your direct points and move on.

Originally Posted by Snowman

There's nothing to conceal though lol. This is 100% allowed. How do you not get this?

I see a difference between what's "allowed" and what's simply accepted with a shrug because it's too difficult to police and business is good.

Frankly, I'm not that fussy about cards for my personal collection. You can soak them, spray them, glue them, tape them, roll them, dip them, or touch them up with crayon. But I respect that other collectors might not feel that way. If I know something's been done to one of my cards that might make a prospective buyer/trader uneasy, I'll disclose it.

Originally Posted by Snowman

Do you also call people a fraudster for not revealing the fact that they washed their car prior to selling it to you? They didn't tell you because it is widely understood and accepted that cleaning cars is OK.

No, and I directly addressed this earlier. This is a bad analogy because there's no real market for unwashed used cars. There is a large market for unwashed cards that haven't been touched up with mystery spray, even if you think those people are dumb.

Originally Posted by Snowman

If some paranoid schizophrenic decides that they don't want cars to be washed and that anyone doing so without concealing that fact was somehow a fraudster, the world doesn't have to cater to his delusional demands. They just roll their eyes, laugh at him and move along to someone living in the real world.

In a far-fetched scenario where you know I'm in the market for a dirty car and you sell me a washed one anyway without disclosing it... yes, I'm comfortable calling you a fraudster.

All that said, I'm an imperfect being. I probably wouldn't lose sleep at night if I trimmed a card to 50/50 perfection, fuzzied the corners a bit to bring it to that PSA 4-5 sweet spot, snuck it through their alteration detectors, and sold it to you at 500% comps. You'd be happy as a clam and I'd have money in my pocket.

It's not actually fraud if we all look the other way, right? Trees falling in the forest and such.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by gunboat82

No, and I directly addressed this earlier. This is a bad analogy because there's no real market for unwashed used cars. There is a large market for unwashed cards that haven't been touched up with mystery spray, even if you think those people are dumb.

The market clearly values cleaned cards more than it values dirty ones. The used car market is no different. Clean used cars sell for more than dirty ones. The only reason you see fewer dirty cars for sale is because everyone knows how to clean a car, but not everyone knows how to clean their cards. As more and more people learn how to do it, it'll become less and less taboo. People are simply afraid of what they don't understand. They think soaking a card should damage it somehow. But they're wrong.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

The market clearly values cleaned cards more than it values dirty ones. The used car market is no different. Clean used cars sell for more than dirty ones. The only reason you see fewer dirty cars for sale is because everyone knows how to clean a car, but not everyone knows how to clean their cards. As more and more people learn how to do it, it'll become less and less taboo. People are simply afraid of what they don't understand. They think soaking a card should damage it somehow. But they're wrong.

And if they're slabbed, the market values trimmed cards whose grade has been improved by trimming more than the prior untrimmed versions. And therefore what?

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And if they're slabbed, the market values trimmed cards whose grade has been improved by trimming more than the prior untrimmed versions. And therefore what?

Trimmed cards are a whole other ball of wax. Unlike with cleaned cards, there is often a very real risk involved if you buy a trimmed card in a slab (depending on if it's detectable or not). If you damage that slab and can't get it to pass grading again, you could be out a substantial amount of money. This is also why I avoid early PSA cert numbers, as those cards generally carry a similar risk due to them almost all being significantly over graded by today's standards. If you damage the slab of a PSA 7 T206 Cy Young with cert # 0635xxxx, it's apart guaranteed to regrade as a 5 today. This risk is not present with cleaned cards though. You can send those off for grading and they'll pass every time.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Trimmed cards are a whole other ball of wax. Unlike with cleaned cards, there is often a very real risk involved if you buy a trimmed card in a slab (depending on if it's detectable or not). If you damage that slab and can't get it to pass grading again, you could be out a substantial amount of money. This is also why I avoid early PSA cert numbers, as those cards generally carry a similar risk due to them almost all being significantly over graded by today's standards. If you damage the slab of a PSA 7 T206 Cy Young with cert # 0635xxxx, it's apart guaranteed to regrade as a 5 today. This risk is not present with cleaned cards though. You can send those off for grading and they'll pass every time.

Why would a slab get damaged? That doesn't seem like a major risk, unless I suppose if you're lugging them to shows all the time.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Snowman

There's nothing to conceal though lol. This is 100% allowed. How do you not get this? Do you also call people a fraudster for not revealing the fact that they washed their car prior to selling it to you? They didn't tell you because it is widely understood and accepted that cleaning cars is OK. If some paranoid schizophrenic decides that they don't want cars to be washed and that anyone doing so without concealing that fact was somehow a fraudster, the world doesn't have to cater to his delusional demands. They just roll their eyes, laugh at him and move along to someone living in the real world.

Don't be the paranoid schizophrenic of the hobby screaming at clouds.

Complains in 147 about irrelevant comparisons, makes an irrelevant comparison a couple posts later.....

[steve B]

Having been priced out of a big chunk of the hobby, I really hate these threads.

Rather than go over to the dark side, lets do this.
If you believe the alterations done with the magic spray, a stick from the art store and a meth pipe are undetectable, send one my way and lets find out for real.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by steve B

Having been priced out of a big chunk of the hobby, I really hate these threads.

Rather than go over to the dark side, lets do this.
If you believe the alterations done with the magic spray, a stick from the art store and a meth pipe are undetectable, send one my way and lets find out for real.

I wouldn't say I hate these threads, but I can empathize with the fact of feeling jaded. Not that I'm not happy for people making money, but some of these numbers being thrown out are obscene. The majority of the time we're talking about alteration in the Hobby, it's with cards that I'm so wildly priced out of. Don't get me wrong, I love the hobby and love looking at the Pre-War side of things. I'm fascinated by these cards, but they're a pipe dream at best.

When Travis, mentioned the price of the Wagner increasing to 75K, I thought "Wow that card is more than my entire years salary."

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Seven

I wouldn't say I hate these threads, but I can empathize with the fact of feeling jaded. Not that I'm not happy for people making money, but some of these numbers being thrown out are obscene. The majority of the time we're talking about alteration in the Hobby, it's with cards that I'm so wildly priced out of. Don't get me wrong, I love the hobby and love looking at the Pre-War side of things. I'm fascinated by these cards, but they're a pipe dream at best.

When Travis, mentioned the price of the Wagner increasing to 75K, I thought "Wow that card is more than my entire years salary."

It's only partly how much everything costs now, even on the lower end.

It's more that people are making a lot doing fairly easy shady stuff.