Paul Skenes Superfractor Ends in Goldin

[Exhibitman]

Add me to the chorus of those who think Randy Johnson does not get the requisite hobby love for his achievements. In that vein, he reminds me of this guy:



Per Wikipedia: "With 363 career wins, Spahn holds the major league record for a left-handed pitcher and has the most by a pitcher who played his entire career in the post-1920 live-ball era. He was a 17-time All-Star who won 20 games or more in 13 seasons, including a 23–7 win–loss record when he was age 42. Spahn won the 1957 Cy Young Award and was a three-time runner-up during the period when only one award was given for both leagues. At the time of his retirement in 1965, Spahn held the Major League record for career strikeouts by a left-handed pitcher. ... The Warren Spahn Award, given annually to the major leagues' best left-handed pitcher, is named in his honor." And he lost 4 seasons to WWII. Yet when we discuss GOAT LHPs, Spahn (100.1 WAR) usually is not considered in the same breath as Grove (106.8), Randy Johnson (101.1), and Koufax. Why: because speed kills. A crafty guy whose philosophy of pitching was "Hitting is timing. Pitching is upsetting timing," he doesn't capture the fancy the same way as the fireballers do. Plus the coolest wind-up ever.

[Peter_Spaeth]

"Hitting is Timing. Pitching is upsetting timing."

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Add me to the chorus of those who think Randy Johnson does not get the requisite hobby love for his achievements. In that vein, he reminds me of this guy:



Per Wikipedia: "With 363 career wins, Spahn holds the major league record for a left-handed pitcher and has the most by a pitcher who played his entire career in the post-1920 live-ball era. He was a 17-time All-Star who won 20 games or more in 13 seasons, including a 23–7 win–loss record when he was age 42. Spahn won the 1957 Cy Young Award and was a three-time runner-up during the period when only one award was given for both leagues. At the time of his retirement in 1965, Spahn held the Major League record for career strikeouts by a left-handed pitcher. ... The Warren Spahn Award, given annually to the major leagues' best left-handed pitcher, is named in his honor." And he lost 4 seasons to WWII. Yet when we discuss GOAT LHPs, Spahn (100.1 WAR) usually is not considered in the same breath as Grove (106.8), Randy Johnson (101.1), and Koufax. Why: because speed kills. A crafty guy whose philosophy of pitching was "Hitting is timing. Pitching is upsetting timing," he doesn't capture the fancy the same way as the fireballers do. Plus the coolest wind-up ever.

Count me in for thinking Spahn is underappreciated.

[dealme]

Originally Posted by Carter08

Count me in for thinking Spahn is underappreciated.

Agreed….and that’s just for fighting at the Battle of the Bulge, let alone his on-field achievements.


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[Peter_Spaeth]

Spahn was funny too. He gave up Mays' first homer, apparently a titanic blast. Afterwards the press asked him what happened. He allegedly said, well, for the first 60 feet it was a helluva pitch. I saw him once at a card show late in his life. He looked for all the world just like an everyday guy.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Spahn was funny too. He gave up Mays' first homer, apparently a titanic blast. Afterwards the press asked him what happened. He allegedly said, well, for the first 60 feet it was a helluva pitch. I saw him once at a card show late in his life. He looked for all the world just like an everyday guy.

In the late 70s I attended a day game at Wrigley and that evening the Yankees were playing in Milwaukee. We made it to Milwaukee in time and got decent seats. Before long we realized that sitting behind us was Warren Spahn. He looked for all the world just like an everyday "older" guy.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

In the late 70s I attended a day game at Wrigley and that evening the Yankees were playing in Milwaukee. We made it to Milwaukee in time and got decent seats. Before long we realized that sitting behind us was Warren Spahn. He looked for all the world just like an everyday "older" guy.

He looked like an everyday older guy by the time he was in his early 40's.

Brian (older looking guy card not mine)

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Carter08

Count me in for thinking Spahn is underappreciated.

Spahn was also the #1 helped-by-park-factors pitcher in MLB history though. Literally #1 on the list across thousands of pitchers. Nobody pitched in a more pitcher friendly park and for longer than Warren Spahn. He's #1 on the list by a large margin too. County Stadium was even more pitcher friendly than Dodger stadium during Koufax's prime.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Spahn was also the #1 helped-by-park-factors pitcher in MLB history though. Literally #1 on the list across thousands of pitchers. Nobody pitched in a more pitcher friendly park and for longer than Warren Spahn. He's #1 on the list by a large margin too. County Stadium was even more pitcher friendly than Dodger stadium during Koufax's prime.

He went up against pitchers in that same stadium and won. His opponents had the same pitcher friendly stadium with which to work.

[G1911]

He might not be as good as Ryu, but Spahn was a fine southpaw and his cards are pretty cheap for a guy who was so good for so very long.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

There's a very real chance that his military service kept him from becoming #2 all-time in wins (54 away) and certainly cost him sole possession of 3rd place (10 away). I think wins in a given season are a crapshoot and kinda meaningless (1987 Nolan Ryan in one direction, 1973 Paul Splitorff in the other), but when you start racking up over 300 for a career it means something, as evidenced by the names anywhere near that total.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

There's a very real chance that his military service kept him from becoming #2 all-time in wins (54 away) and certainly cost him sole possession of 3rd place (10 away). I think wins in a given season are a crapshoot and kinda meaningless (1987 Nolan Ryan in one direction, 1973 Paul Splitorff in the other), but when you start racking up over 300 for a career it means something, as evidenced by the names anywhere near that total.

Spahn has said the opposite. Warren when asked about how many more games he could have won if he had not served in the military has said that his service matured him and made him a better pitcher. Without his military service, it is very possible that Spahn wins a lot fewer games and his career looks very different than it does today.

In 1942 Spahn won 0 games and gave up 15 runs, 10 earned in 15 2/3 innings before being sent back to the minor leagues.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Carter08

He went up against pitchers in that same stadium and won. His opponents had the same pitcher friendly stadium with which to work.

Yes for any given game, but he pitched half his games there and they didn't, so statistically it's to his relative advantage. Look at Koufax home and away, huge disparity, and that feeds into his overall stats because half his games during his peak years were in a cavernous pitcher friendly park. That's why some metrics adjust for park factors.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yes for any given game, but he pitched half his games there and they didn't, so statistically it's to his relative advantage. Look at Koufax home and away, huge disparity, and that feeds into his overall stats because half his games during his peak years were in a cavernous pitcher friendly park. That's why some metrics adjust for park factors.

Over 350 wins, triple digit WAR total, over a dozen AS appearances, a Cy Young, a few no hitters. Led the league in whip, strikeouts, ERA, complete games, etc many times. All done after his early career was interrupted by a calling to see real action in WW2. Hard pressed to figure how he’s not one of the all time great pitchers. It’s fun to play devils advocate but it doesn’t hold water when trying to knock Spahn.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Carter08

Over 350 wins, triple digit WAR total, over a dozen AS appearances, a Cy Young, a few no hitters. Led the league in whip, strikeouts, ERA, complete games, etc many times. All done after his early career was interrupted by a calling to see real action in WW2. Hard pressed to figure how he’s not one of the all time great pitchers. It’s fun to play devils advocate but it doesn’t hold water when trying to knock Spahn.

I am a huge Spahn fan, I am just pointing out your logic was inherently flawed on the park effects point.