Paul Skenes Superfractor Ends in Goldin

Carter08 · #1 07-21-2024, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

Spahn was also the #1 helped-by-park-factors pitcher in MLB history though. Literally #1 on the list across thousands of pitchers. Nobody pitched in a more pitcher friendly park and for longer than Warren Spahn. He's #1 on the list by a large margin too. County Stadium was even more pitcher friendly than Dodger stadium during Koufax's prime.

He went up against pitchers in that same stadium and won. His opponents had the same pitcher friendly stadium with which to work.

G1911 · #2 07-21-2024, 01:49 PM

He might not be as good as Ryu, but Spahn was a fine southpaw and his cards are pretty cheap for a guy who was so good for so very long.

Aquarian Sports Cards · #3 07-21-2024, 01:58 PM

There's a very real chance that his military service kept him from becoming #2 all-time in wins (54 away) and certainly cost him sole possession of 3rd place (10 away). I think wins in a given season are a crapshoot and kinda meaningless (1987 Nolan Ryan in one direction, 1973 Paul Splitorff in the other), but when you start racking up over 300 for a career it means something, as evidenced by the names anywhere near that total.

rats60 · #4 07-21-2024, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

There's a very real chance that his military service kept him from becoming #2 all-time in wins (54 away) and certainly cost him sole possession of 3rd place (10 away). I think wins in a given season are a crapshoot and kinda meaningless (1987 Nolan Ryan in one direction, 1973 Paul Splitorff in the other), but when you start racking up over 300 for a career it means something, as evidenced by the names anywhere near that total.

Spahn has said the opposite. Warren when asked about how many more games he could have won if he had not served in the military has said that his service matured him and made him a better pitcher. Without his military service, it is very possible that Spahn wins a lot fewer games and his career looks very different than it does today.

In 1942 Spahn won 0 games and gave up 15 runs, 10 earned in 15 2/3 innings before being sent back to the minor leagues.

Peter_Spaeth · #5 07-21-2024, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carter08

He went up against pitchers in that same stadium and won. His opponents had the same pitcher friendly stadium with which to work.

Yes for any given game, but he pitched half his games there and they didn't, so statistically it's to his relative advantage. Look at Koufax home and away, huge disparity, and that feeds into his overall stats because half his games during his peak years were in a cavernous pitcher friendly park. That's why some metrics adjust for park factors.

Carter08 · #6 07-21-2024, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yes for any given game, but he pitched half his games there and they didn't, so statistically it's to his relative advantage. Look at Koufax home and away, huge disparity, and that feeds into his overall stats because half his games during his peak years were in a cavernous pitcher friendly park. That's why some metrics adjust for park factors.

Over 350 wins, triple digit WAR total, over a dozen AS appearances, a Cy Young, a few no hitters. Led the league in whip, strikeouts, ERA, complete games, etc many times. All done after his early career was interrupted by a calling to see real action in WW2. Hard pressed to figure how he�s not one of the all time great pitchers. It�s fun to play devils advocate but it doesn�t hold water when trying to knock Spahn.

Peter_Spaeth · #7 07-21-2024, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carter08

Over 350 wins, triple digit WAR total, over a dozen AS appearances, a Cy Young, a few no hitters. Led the league in whip, strikeouts, ERA, complete games, etc many times. All done after his early career was interrupted by a calling to see real action in WW2. Hard pressed to figure how he’s not one of the all time great pitchers. It’s fun to play devils advocate but it doesn’t hold water when trying to knock Spahn.

I am a huge Spahn fan, I am just pointing out your logic was inherently flawed on the park effects point.

Carter08 · #8 07-21-2024, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I am a huge Spahn fan, I am just pointing out your logic was inherently flawed on the park effects point.

A pitcher�s main goal is to get a win. When he went up against pitchers in what some call a pitcher friendly park he way more often than not won that battle. Hard to do a kabookie dance around that fact.

Peter_Spaeth · #9 07-21-2024, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carter08

A pitcher’s main goal is to get a win. When he went up against pitchers in what some call a pitcher friendly park he way more often than not won that battle. Hard to do a kabookie dance around that fact.

I disagree. A pitcher's main goal is to limit the opposition in order to maximize his team's chances of winning. The metrics showing how good a player was at doing that -- which take into account any park effects -- tell us much more than mere wins and losses.

Carter08 · #10 07-21-2024, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I disagree. A pitcher's main goal is to limit the opposition in order to maximize his team's chances of winning. The metrics showing how good a player was at doing that -- which take into account any park effects -- tell us much more than mere wins and losses.

Disagree. Main, perhaps sole, goal is to win. Everything else is rather secondary. What you wrote sounds rather silly compared to that fundamental fact of the sport. If a pitcher realizes his team is up big and he can stay in the game but give up some runs and still get the win so the bullpen can rest, that�s valuable to a team but won�t necessarily show up in the stats. Not sure what you�re arguing here. Spahn wasn�t elite?

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