Comic Book Restoration lawsuit. Cards Next?

jingram058 · #1 08-19-2024, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Hard to see what was in it for CGC to defame the Meyers's work. Not a big fan of restoration except in cases of otherwise high-value items with major, cringe-worthy damage, but to each his own. What's really strikes me as silly is slabbing something meant to be opened and read.

+1 on all of that. But then I feel that way about the "expert" grading of cardboard baseball cards as well. Very few people just collect anymore. It's all about protecting their investments. That's more important than actually holding the cards in their hands.

D. Bergin · #2 08-19-2024, 10:34 AM

Hmmm,

Never owned a graded comic...but I'm not sure I like this outcome one bit.

Jury swayed by an underdog story and an Eagles vs. Cowboys metaphor?

Because their "restored" comics came back lower then anticipated?

This would be a good excuse for CGC to stop grading restored comics...full stop!

Peter_Spaeth · #3 08-19-2024, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Hmmm,

Never owned a graded comic...but I'm not sure I like this outcome one bit.

Jury swayed by an underdog story and an Eagles vs. Cowboys metaphor?

Because their "restored" comics came back lower then anticipated?

This would be a good excuse for CGC to stop grading restored comics...full stop!

I don't think the claim was based on the grades, but rather what CGC said about them to others, from a quick read.

D. Bergin · #4 08-19-2024, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't think the claim was based on the grades, but rather what CGC said about them to others, from a quick read.

I think one goes hand in hand with the other.

Were they doing something sketchy or not?

CGC seems to think so...but apparently weren't allowed to warn others of this.

Where the "defamation" comes in I guess.

Big auction houses and consignment outfits now have another excuse (ie. huge f*#king lawsuit) to not out shillers and card doctors publicly.

Peter_Spaeth · #5 08-19-2024, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

I think one goes hand in hand with the other.

Were they doing something sketchy or not?

CGC seems to think so...but apparently weren't allowed to warn others of this.

Where the "defamation" comes in I guess.

Big auction houses and consignment outfits now have another excuse (ie. huge f*#king lawsuit) to not out shillers and card doctors publicly.

When has any big auction house EVER outed a shiller or card doctor publicly?

D. Bergin · #6 08-19-2024, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

When has any big auction house EVER outed a shiller or card doctor publicly?

Thus my use of the phrase "another excuse".

Peter_Spaeth · #7 08-19-2024, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Thus my use of the phrase "another excuse".

As far as selling altered cards and enabling card doctors, auction houses have pretty much acted with impunity, and post the failed PWCC investigation, seemingly have nothing at all to worry about.

tjisonline · #8 08-26-2024, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't think the claim was based on the grades, but rather what CGC said about them to others, from a quick read.

It was. Both undergrading their ( married couple) comic by CGC and ample libel plus slander. It's mentioned in the article and court docs.

Keith H. Thompson · #9 08-19-2024, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jingram058

+1 on all of that. But then I feel that way about the "expert" grading of cardboard baseball cards as well. Very few people just collect anymore. It's all about protecting their investments. That's more important than actually holding the cards in their hands.

I own about three graded cards, purchased entirely on the contents. I have never had a card graded, and have only sold a handful of beaters just to get rid of them. I think I qualify as a collector primarily interested in history and research.

My three grandchildren went to the Fanatics Show at the Javits Center last week. I think my son bought them each a 60 dollar pack of 2024 nonsense, but the highlight was a freebie 1989 Topps pack a dealer gave to Poppy. She is only 12 years old, and saved it until last night to open it front of me. No recognizable names to her (and not all to me). I got the strong impression that the highlight of the entire expedition was the stick of gum.

Sometimes friends ask me how much my collection is worth. I usually answer: "which side of the decimal ?"

packs · #10 08-19-2024, 01:15 PM

It's hard to understand why a grading company would make such an effort to discredit these people. I could see if they genuinely thought their alterations went against hobby standards but it doesn't seem like that was the issue. It sounds like it was more personal than that but why is hard to interpret.

Snowman · #11 08-20-2024, 01:50 AM

Gee, I'm shocked! Shocked I tell you! I can't believe a jury would side with the people restoring collectibles and not the grading company! This is wild!!! How could anyone have ever predicted this outcome?

Leon · #12 08-22-2024, 08:34 AM

Collecting is very different than it used to be, for the majority today. That doesn't include a lot of us on this forum.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jingram058

+1 on all of that. But then I feel that way about the "expert" grading of cardboard baseball cards as well. Very few people just collect anymore. It's all about protecting their investments. That's more important than actually holding the cards in their hands.

campyfan39 · #13 08-22-2024, 09:38 AM

I always found it odd to grade comics. They're different from cards or coins in that when they're encased, you can't actually read the thing or see its pages�which is the purpose of them!

To me, it would be like having a binder of a set with a front and back page showing encased.

Hankphenom · #14 08-22-2024, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by campyfan39

I always found it odd to grade comics. They're different from cards or coins in that when they're encased, you can't actually read the thing or see its pages�which is the purpose of them! To me, it would be like having a binder of a set with a front and back page showing encased.

This.

packs · #15 08-22-2024, 12:28 PM

I agree as well. I think of things like illuminated books. Imagine if you had a copy of one of William Blake's illuminated books and you slabbed it. How could anyone ever appreciate what's inside and what ultimate purpose does slabbing it achieve? There are better ways to conserve things you're meant to look at.

samosa4u · #16 08-22-2024, 02:38 PM

How can cards be next?? In the comic book world, restoration is acceptable. But with trading cards, the opposite is true. So how can a card doctor sue a grading company when he is NOT supposed to be restoring cards in the first place??

Exhibitman · #17 08-22-2024, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samosa4u

In the comic book world, restoration is acceptable.

CGC even does some of it: pressing.

Exhibitman · #18 08-22-2024, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by campyfan39

I always found it odd to grade comics. They're different from cards or coins in that when they're encased, you can't actually read the thing or see its pages—which is the purpose of them!

That's why you get a reprint. Marvel has been diligent about issuing reprints on modern stock so people can enjoy them.

I thought encapsulation was stupid too, but then I read some of the Silver Age books I remembered fondly from my childhood, and I remembered why I tired of them. "Crapola" would be a charitable review. The stories are facile and silly, and with giant plot holes (villain exposition, never killing the hero straight-up when he has a chance, etc.), but that fits an item meant for a ten-year-old boy to read. The best parts of most books are the covers, so why not slab them and enjoy the cover art?

obcbobd · #19 08-22-2024, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by campyfan39

I always found it odd to grade comics. They're different from cards or coins in that when they're encased, you can't actually read the thing or see its pages�which is the purpose of them!

To me, it would be like having a binder of a set with a front and back page showing encased.

I think it is like grading packs or even a full display box (is that even a thing?). At least with graded cards you can still read everything. And they go further when you flip them. Not so good for the bicycle spokes :-(

JollyElm · #20 08-22-2024, 05:01 PM

Sorry, OP, but this is a case of being TLDR.
Can anyone do a quick bullet point summation of what the first post contains, and hence explain what is going on?
(I'm sure a heckuva lot of other members would appreciate it, too.)

Smanzari · #21 08-22-2024, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Sorry, OP, but this is a case of being TLDR.
Can anyone do a quick bullet point summation of what the first post contains, and hence explain what is going on?
(I'm sure a heckuva lot of other members would appreciate it, too.)

This is what I'm picking up, but could be reading wrong (so someone please correct me if I'm wrong) but:

- Some guys got really good at comic restoration
- CGC said they were fakes / reprints, so stops accepting their submissions
- The guys really were THAT good at comic restoration
- CGC now owes those guys lots of money

Musashi · #22 08-22-2024, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smanzari

This is what I'm picking up, but could be reading wrong (so someone please correct me if I'm wrong) but:

- Some guys got really good at comic restoration
- CGC said they were fakes / reprints, so stops accepting their submissions
- The guys really were THAT good at comic restoration
- CGC now owes those guys lots of money

I'd add to that, between 1 and 2 above:

Guys consulted with CGC about what would be acceptable in terms of restoration, and followed their recommendations/instructions

LEHR · #23 01-19-2025, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by campyfan39

I always found it odd to grade comics. They're different from cards or coins in that when they're encased, you can't actually read the thing or see its pages�which is the purpose of them!

To me, it would be like having a binder of a set with a front and back page showing encased.

I have a few graded horror comics. To me the slabbing helps preserve/protect the original and sometimes fragile books, and I have a reprint or beater copy to read.

gregndodgers · #24 01-20-2025, 12:29 PM

The issue here concerns First Amendment right to free speech, and its limitations. Has nothing to do with restoration. Once the guy from CGC stopped providing opinions (which all grading companies do when they inspect, grade, and slab a card or comic book) and started to publicly slander the restoration company, he got in hot water. Should have known better.

EDIT: Here is a link to an article that explains that CGC had concerns that the comics were not being restored but were being reprinted, recreated, and or faked. In other words, the comics were counterfeits. That's not an issue of restoration. It an issue of whether fraud was committed based on allegations of fakes and recreations. Then, the restorers filed a defamation suit, which of course, involves the First Amendment.

https://www.pennlive.com/news/2019/1...slandered.html

EDIT # 2, quote from attached appeal: "It bears emphasizing here that within the industry, a comic book’s value becomes greatly diminished once any component is substituted or removed, such as 'trimming' off the damaged edges of a page or 'reprinting' covers with a Xeroxed copy. Such practices both mar the quality of the original comic book and mislead collectors about how much of the original work remains. 'Re-creation' is often synonymous with 'fake' or 'counterfeit.' See Page 5 of attached opinion.

https://www.pacourts.us/assets/opini...9280486128.pdf

Rich Klein · #25 08-22-2024, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon

Collecting is very different than it used to be, for the majority today. That doesn't include a lot of us on this forum.

+1 I don't know but I've said words to this effect often. What we do on this board is different from what many people in this sports card collecting do nowadays. And that's fine. We're happy with what we do and they are happy with what they do

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