Comic Book Restoration lawsuit. Cards Next?

Leon · #1 08-22-2024, 08:34 AM

Collecting is very different than it used to be, for the majority today. That doesn't include a lot of us on this forum.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jingram058

+1 on all of that. But then I feel that way about the "expert" grading of cardboard baseball cards as well. Very few people just collect anymore. It's all about protecting their investments. That's more important than actually holding the cards in their hands.

campyfan39 · #2 08-22-2024, 09:38 AM

I always found it odd to grade comics. They're different from cards or coins in that when they're encased, you can't actually read the thing or see its pages�which is the purpose of them!

To me, it would be like having a binder of a set with a front and back page showing encased.

Hankphenom · #3 08-22-2024, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by campyfan39

I always found it odd to grade comics. They're different from cards or coins in that when they're encased, you can't actually read the thing or see its pages�which is the purpose of them! To me, it would be like having a binder of a set with a front and back page showing encased.

This.

packs · #4 08-22-2024, 12:28 PM

I agree as well. I think of things like illuminated books. Imagine if you had a copy of one of William Blake's illuminated books and you slabbed it. How could anyone ever appreciate what's inside and what ultimate purpose does slabbing it achieve? There are better ways to conserve things you're meant to look at.

samosa4u · #5 08-22-2024, 02:38 PM

How can cards be next?? In the comic book world, restoration is acceptable. But with trading cards, the opposite is true. So how can a card doctor sue a grading company when he is NOT supposed to be restoring cards in the first place??

Exhibitman · #6 08-22-2024, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samosa4u

In the comic book world, restoration is acceptable.

CGC even does some of it: pressing.

Balticfox · #7 01-19-2025, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

CGC even does some of it: pressing.

That's been very controversial from the start. The Overstreet Comic Book Price Guide (which had served as the Bible for comic collectors since 1971) had been including a page on restoration techniques and therefore what constituted restoration since at least the late-1970's.

But CGC had its own less strict opinion of what constituted restoration - and pressing didn't qualify as restoration on its list because no extraneous substance/material was being added to the comic by the pressing process. But, CGC didn't let everyone know that it didn't consider pressed comics to be restored. Only a few friendly dealers who were in cahoots with CGC to bid up the prices of comics in CGC slabs (and thus their own inventories) initially knew that pressed comics could still get blue unrestored labels.

Yes, that really smelled.

Exhibitman · #8 08-22-2024, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by campyfan39

I always found it odd to grade comics. They're different from cards or coins in that when they're encased, you can't actually read the thing or see its pages—which is the purpose of them!

That's why you get a reprint. Marvel has been diligent about issuing reprints on modern stock so people can enjoy them.

I thought encapsulation was stupid too, but then I read some of the Silver Age books I remembered fondly from my childhood, and I remembered why I tired of them. "Crapola" would be a charitable review. The stories are facile and silly, and with giant plot holes (villain exposition, never killing the hero straight-up when he has a chance, etc.), but that fits an item meant for a ten-year-old boy to read. The best parts of most books are the covers, so why not slab them and enjoy the cover art?

obcbobd · #9 08-22-2024, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by campyfan39

I always found it odd to grade comics. They're different from cards or coins in that when they're encased, you can't actually read the thing or see its pages�which is the purpose of them!

To me, it would be like having a binder of a set with a front and back page showing encased.

I think it is like grading packs or even a full display box (is that even a thing?). At least with graded cards you can still read everything. And they go further when you flip them. Not so good for the bicycle spokes :-(

JollyElm · #10 08-22-2024, 05:01 PM

Sorry, OP, but this is a case of being TLDR.
Can anyone do a quick bullet point summation of what the first post contains, and hence explain what is going on?
(I'm sure a heckuva lot of other members would appreciate it, too.)

Smanzari · #11 08-22-2024, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Sorry, OP, but this is a case of being TLDR.
Can anyone do a quick bullet point summation of what the first post contains, and hence explain what is going on?
(I'm sure a heckuva lot of other members would appreciate it, too.)

This is what I'm picking up, but could be reading wrong (so someone please correct me if I'm wrong) but:

- Some guys got really good at comic restoration
- CGC said they were fakes / reprints, so stops accepting their submissions
- The guys really were THAT good at comic restoration
- CGC now owes those guys lots of money

Musashi · #12 08-22-2024, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smanzari

This is what I'm picking up, but could be reading wrong (so someone please correct me if I'm wrong) but:

- Some guys got really good at comic restoration
- CGC said they were fakes / reprints, so stops accepting their submissions
- The guys really were THAT good at comic restoration
- CGC now owes those guys lots of money

I'd add to that, between 1 and 2 above:

Guys consulted with CGC about what would be acceptable in terms of restoration, and followed their recommendations/instructions

LEHR · #13 01-19-2025, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by campyfan39

I always found it odd to grade comics. They're different from cards or coins in that when they're encased, you can't actually read the thing or see its pages�which is the purpose of them!

To me, it would be like having a binder of a set with a front and back page showing encased.

I have a few graded horror comics. To me the slabbing helps preserve/protect the original and sometimes fragile books, and I have a reprint or beater copy to read.

gregndodgers · #14 01-20-2025, 12:29 PM

The issue here concerns First Amendment right to free speech, and its limitations. Has nothing to do with restoration. Once the guy from CGC stopped providing opinions (which all grading companies do when they inspect, grade, and slab a card or comic book) and started to publicly slander the restoration company, he got in hot water. Should have known better.

EDIT: Here is a link to an article that explains that CGC had concerns that the comics were not being restored but were being reprinted, recreated, and or faked. In other words, the comics were counterfeits. That's not an issue of restoration. It an issue of whether fraud was committed based on allegations of fakes and recreations. Then, the restorers filed a defamation suit, which of course, involves the First Amendment.

https://www.pennlive.com/news/2019/1...slandered.html

EDIT # 2, quote from attached appeal: "It bears emphasizing here that within the industry, a comic book’s value becomes greatly diminished once any component is substituted or removed, such as 'trimming' off the damaged edges of a page or 'reprinting' covers with a Xeroxed copy. Such practices both mar the quality of the original comic book and mislead collectors about how much of the original work remains. 'Re-creation' is often synonymous with 'fake' or 'counterfeit.' See Page 5 of attached opinion.

https://www.pacourts.us/assets/opini...9280486128.pdf

Rich Klein · #15 08-22-2024, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon

Collecting is very different than it used to be, for the majority today. That doesn't include a lot of us on this forum.

+1 I don't know but I've said words to this effect often. What we do on this board is different from what many people in this sports card collecting do nowadays. And that's fine. We're happy with what we do and they are happy with what they do

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