Most undervalued HOFers

Peter_Spaeth · #1 10-24-2024, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balticfox

To use the words "Baseball cards" and undervalued" together is an oxymoron. I mean who would have anticipated that these cheap pieces of cardboard inserted as a premium to sell cigars and cigarettes, bread, bubble gum, breakfast cereal, etc. would some day fetch not just pouches but bags of silver (and even gold!) coins? Who would have predicted that such widespread daftness would take hold among baby boomers?

So let's turn the question around. Limiting ourselves to post-WWII cards since just about all of these are still in plentiful supply, which players are the most grotesquely overpriced? Should any names be added to those of Mickey Mantle, Yogi Berra, Willie Mays and Hank Aaron? Sandy Koufax maybe?

Clemente.

At least in terms of his numbers. Bill James, as of 20 years ago, ranked him only 70th or so, whereas everyone else has him significantly higher. We have had this discussion before and I suppose we may have it again. Only 240 HR, and he wasn't much of a HR hitter on the road either, so I think Forbes Field only gets one so far in downplaying his lack of HR power. Yes, incredible arm, but James makes a cogent argument that that whole thing is not as important overall as some make it out to be. There was a very interesting (and of course contentious) discussion about Clemente and Kaline being roughly equal not that long ago here.

rats60 · #2 10-24-2024, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Only 240 HR, and he wasn't much of a HR hitter on the road either, so I think Forbes Field only gets one so far in downplaying his lack of HR power.

Home park makes a huge difference. From 1955-69 when Clemente played in Forbes, there were an average of 86 HR per season hit. Compare that to Hank Aaron's home field advantage. From 1966-68 there were an average of 151 HR per season hit in the "Launching Pad." After the 1968 season, the Braves moved the fences in to help Aaron hit more HRs. From 1969-73, that number jumped to 187 per season. 1n 1974 with Aaron at 713 HRs, the Braves moved the fences back.

If Aaron hadn't played in Atlanta, he would be fifth all time in home runs and his cards would be priced similar to Frank Robinson's. Mickey Mantle and Hank Aaron are the most overpriced post-war vintage players.

Peter_Spaeth · #3 10-24-2024, 02:54 PM

Just looking at 1969, Hank hit more home runs on the road than at home.

John1941 · #4 10-24-2024, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rats60

Home park makes a huge difference. From 1955-69 when Clemente played in Forbes, there were an average of 86 HR per season hit. Compare that to Hank Aaron's home field advantage. From 1966-68 there were an average of 151 HR per season hit in the "Launching Pad." After the 1968 season, the Braves moved the fences in to help Aaron hit more HRs. From 1969-73, that number jumped to 187 per season. 1n 1974 with Aaron at 713 HRs, the Braves moved the fences back.

If Aaron hadn't played in Atlanta, he would be fifth all time in home runs and his cards would be priced similar to Frank Robinson's. Mickey Mantle and Hank Aaron are the most overpriced post-war vintage players.

For his career, Aaron hit 385 homers at home and 370 on the road. 740 home runs would not make you 5th all-time.

timn1 · #5 10-25-2024, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John1941

For his career, Aaron hit 385 homers at home and 370 on the road. 740 home runs would not make you 5th all-time.

Sure, park effects are significant at times but the idea that Aaron is overrated is just nuts to me.

I Think If anything Aaron is way undervalued. One of the ten greatest players of all time, and I would argue one of the top five most important of all time.

bk400 · #6 10-25-2024, 03:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timn1

Sure, park effects are significant at times but the idea that Aaron is overrated is just nuts to me.

I Think If anything Aaron is way undervalued. One of the ten greatest players of all time, and I would argue one of the top five most important of all time.

+1. One could make a credible argument that he was the greatest player of all time -- and had an off the field impact that perhaps rivaled that of Jackie Robinson.

SAllen2556 · #7 10-25-2024, 08:07 AM

If I were buying for investment I'd buy Willie Mays all day. If anyone can catch Mantle in price, it's him. He's got the numbers, the reputation, and now that he's passed, he can't be rude to fans anymore!

I think with Mantle it's basically because his name is associated with baseball cards. If you consider the hobby and its growth, the '52 Mantle is the starting point. If you ask a non-collector, "What name do you associate most with baseball card collecting?" The answer would be Mickey Mantle.

For pre-war I think players who starred in the 1920's are undervalued because there were no really popular card sets produced. I'd include Harry Heilmann as one of those guys because he doesn't have a T206 or a Goudey card. In fact, I wonder how many hall-of-famers from that era don't have a card in either of those sets? Maybe Heilmann is the only one.

BillyCoxDodgers3B · #8 10-25-2024, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAllen2556

For pre-war I think players who starred in the 1920's are undervalued because there was no really popular card sets produced then. I'd include Harry Heilmann as one of those guys because he doesn't have a T206 or a Goudey card. In fact, I wonder how many hall-of-famers from that era don't have a card in either of those sets? Maybe Heilmann is the only one.

There are several HOFers where nobody seems to care. Heilmann has always been one of them. Same with someone like Al Simmons. I have never in my life run into a single collector who specializes in either, although you have to imagine they're out there somewhere.

molenick · #9 10-25-2024, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAllen2556

For pre-war I think players who starred in the 1920's are undervalued because there was no really popular card sets produced then. I'd include Harry Heilmann as one of those guys because he doesn't have a T206 or a Goudey card. In fact, I wonder how many hall-of-famers from that era don't have a card in either of those sets? Maybe Heilmann is the only one.

I once tried to work out who was the best player not to be in any of the classic T and E sets, and also to miss all the 1930s sets, and Alexander was who I came up with. In some measurements, one of the top five pitchers ever, but probably under-collected because of not being in these sets.

However, he did make it into both Cracker Jacks sets, which are technically E cards (even though they are not usually referred to as E145-1 and E145-2) while Heilmann did not.

If you want to limit it to T206 and 1933 Goudey, I imagine there are other HOFers sandwiched between these two...but I have not tried to look for those. Maybe a fun project after work. Some of the "lesser" 1920s HOFers, like "Highpockets" Kelly and Chick Hafey would qualify.

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