Poll Should GA disclose that the PSA 6.5 and SGC MIN SIZE Dimaggios are same card?

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

But how else can you define materiality other than by what buyers consider important? I mean sure, maybe they shouldn't, but if they do, they do.

The problem is that you're conflating opinion with fact. You might think that the previous grader's opinion is material, but at the end of the day it is still just an opinion. It is not a fact about the card itself. A material fact has to be a fact to begin with. And you can't spin it to say it's a material fact that someone had an opinion lol.

You have to get over this idea that whatever is written on a slab is some sort of factual statement about a card. It's just not. It's just one person's opinion on a particular day.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

The problem is that you're conflating opinion with fact. You might think that the previous grader's opinion is material, but at the end of the day it is still just an opinion. It is not a fact about the card itself. A material fact has to be a fact to begin with. And you can't spin it to say it's a material fact that someone had an opinion lol.

You have to get over this idea that whatever is written on a slab is some sort of factual statement about a card. It's just not. It's just one person's opinion on a particular day.

Why can't an opinion be material? I am selling a revolutionary new cancer treatment, claiming that it is safe. But I conceal that expert A -- let's make him the most prominent expert in the world -- told me clearly that in his opinion the treatment was highly unsafe. No fraud because it's not a "fact"?

[G1911]

Cards like this have most of their value dependent on the appeal to authority, not the cardboard itself. The top 2 authorities were consulted and gave widely different opinions. It is honest to take 2 seconds to note that. If people don't care, then the price won't change and there's no issue. Honesty was once considered the proper course of action to take. Most hobbies at least pretend that it still is.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Cards like this have most of their value dependent on the appeal to authority, not the cardboard itself. The top 2 authorities were consulted and gave widely different opinions. It is honest to take 2 seconds to note that. If people don't care, then the price won't change and there's no issue. Honesty was once considered the proper course of action to take. Most hobbies at least pretend that it still is.

You wonder if all the people going to such lengths to justify nondisclosure, if they were selling the card to a friend and knew the grading history, would conceal it from them? Maybe they would.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Why can't an opinion be material? I am selling a revolutionary new cancer treatment, claiming that it is safe. But I conceal that expert A -- let's make him the most prominent expert in the world -- told me clearly that in his opinion the treatment was highly unsafe. No fraud because it's not a "fact"?

Please don't turn this into a political discussion, but did you not just live through the same pandemic the rest of us did?

Regardless, you seem to have fallen into the trap of believing that these graders are experts. They're just not. 90% of them know less about the cards they're grading than nearly everyone here on this board.

Try this on for size... There are a significant number of people in this hobby who highly value my opinion on what a card should grade and whether or not it has been altered (I know, shocking). I get consulted almost daily about whether or not someone should buy cards X, Y, and Z. My opinion affects whether or not these people bid on those cards. If you were to auction a card off at Goldin and I mentioned that I was confident the card was trimmed and thus not deserving of the PSA 8 grade it received, would you/Goldin then have an obligation to disclose my opinion? No? What if Mike Baker chimed in and agreed with me? Do they have an obligation then?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Please don't turn this into a political discussion, but did you not just live through the same pandemic the rest of us did?

Regardless, you seem to have fallen into the trap of believing that these graders are experts. They're just not. 90% of them know less about the cards they're grading than nearly everyone here on this board.

Try this on for size... There are a significant number of people in this hobby who highly value my opinion on what a card should grade and whether or not it has been altered (I know, shocking). I get consulted almost daily about whether or not someone should buy cards X, Y, and Z. My opinion affects whether or not these people bid on those cards. If you were to auction a card off at Goldin and I mentioned that I was confident the card was trimmed and thus not deserving of the PSA 8 grade it received, would you/Goldin then have an obligation to disclose my opinion? No? What if Mike Baker chimed in and agreed with me? Do they have an obligation then?

I don't think there would be an obligation to disclose individuals' informal opinions on cards under any circumstances, no. But it's a good hypothetical.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Travis, genuine question. If TPGs are as bad as you say -- and I'm not disputing it and share some of your skepticism -- why do you think it is TPGs have gained such a death grip on the hobby, and flips matter as much as they do in the marketplace? I have my theories but curious about yours.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Travis, genuine question. If TPGs are as bad as you say -- and I'm not disputing it and share some of your skepticism -- why do you think it is TPGs have gained such a death grip on the hobby, and flips matter as much as they do in the marketplace? I have my theories but curious about yours.

I suspect it's because most of the marketplace believes the TPG marketing puffery, and hasn't come to the dawning realization that the graders aren't really as infallible as they purport to be.

In any auction, all it takes is 2 bidders to set the price, even if the rest of us sit it out because we don't like what we see under the plastic.

I also think that there's a counterpoint, which is that cards with the same grade will still sell (at times) for dramatically different prices, if the underlying cardboard looks nice for the grade, or on the flip side if the cardboard looks like hot garbage for the grade.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by raulus

I suspect it's because most of the marketplace believes the TPG marketing puffery, and hasn't come to the dawning realization that the graders aren't really as infallible as they purport to be.

In any auction, all it takes is 2 bidders to set the price, even if the rest of us sit it out because we don't like what we see under the plastic.

I also think that there's a counterpoint, which is that cards with the same grade will still sell (at times) for dramatically different prices, if the underlying cardboard looks nice for the grade, or on the flip side if the cardboard looks like hot garbage for the grade.

So -- genuine question, not critical -- why instead of just collecting Mays are you competing on the Mays registry?

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Travis, genuine question. If TPGs are as bad as you say -- and I'm not disputing it and share some of your skepticism -- why do you think it is TPGs have gained such a death grip on the hobby, and flips matter as much as they do in the marketplace? I have my theories but curious about yours.

Because of trickle down EGOnomics. Dumbass A wants to compete against Dumbass B so he can claim he has the best collection around. And of course ignorance about the grading process plays a role as well. If these guys knew that their PSA 9s were all just cracked out of PSA 6 holders and resubmitted, they might change their minds about which cards they choose to buy in the future. Then again, they might not.

[Peter_Spaeth]

A remarkable marketing achievement, to have built so successful a business on services of illusory value -- or just luck. Either way.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't think there would be an obligation to disclose individuals' informal opinions on cards under any circumstances, no. But it's a good hypothetical.

So an expert's informal opinion wouldn't need to be disclosed but an ignoramus' formal opinion would because he gets paid $19/hr to grade cards in between Mountain Dew breaks?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

So an expert's informal opinion wouldn't need to be disclosed but an ignoramus' formal opinion would because he gets paid $19/hr to grade cards in between Mountain Dew breaks?

LOL. I am guessing someone high up like Dave would have graded the DiMaggio, no? They're not going to entrust a potential 6 figure card to some kid.

[nolemmings]

So I'm just curious. If we can't pick and choose what should be disclosed, then what if that WWG card or any other were graded Authentic--Altered/trimmed and then later deemed by a different company to get a numeric grade? No reason to disclose the prior "altered" grade? Just an opinion no different than if the first company slabbed it with a lower numeric grade? Is that in essence the argument advanced by some here?

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

LOL. I am guessing someone high up like Dave would have graded the DiMaggio, no? They're not going to entrust a potential 6 figure card to some kid.

I used to think that as well. But I've changed my mind after seeing some of my results even at the highest grading tiers. I'd say it's more likely that an experienced grader gets these submissions but it's far from a guarantee. The variance is lower than it is for bulk level submissions, but it still very much feels like the Wild West.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Try this on for size... There are a significant number of people in this hobby who highly value my opinion on what a card should grade and whether or not it has been altered (I know, shocking). I get consulted almost daily about whether or not someone should buy cards X, Y, and Z. My opinion affects whether or not these people bid on those cards. If you were to auction a card off at Goldin and I mentioned that I was confident the card was trimmed and thus not deserving of the PSA 8 grade it received, would you/Goldin then have an obligation to disclose my opinion? No? What if Mike Baker chimed in and agreed with me? Do they have an obligation then?

Time to fire up that sticker enterprise that you've been talking about!