Hey, pennant guys

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by sayheykid54

I personally framed the Detroit Tigers Banner. Felt that framing it vertically with the "World Champs" on the top would display better.

Yes, you definitely positioned it the right way and I like the pale orange mat, which compliments it very well.

Question...

Did you somehow adhere the Banner to the mat? Or does the pressure from the backing adequately hold the banner against the glass without it slipping.

Thanks!

[perezfan]

duplicate post

[sayheykid54]

We assembled the Banner in the frame using only the pressure from the front glass. Didn't want to use any tape or pin of any kind. I realize over time it might slip down in the frame over time and would have to be repositioned.

[sayheykid54]

We assembled the Banner in the frame using only the pressure from the front glass. Didn't want to use any tape or pin of any kind. I realize over time it might slip down in the frame over time and would have to be repositioned.

[perezfan]

Definitely the best way to do it..... Great job!

[Duluth Eskimo]

Originally Posted by sayheykid54

I was fortunate to purchase this in my local area. Glad to add it to my collection.

I’ve never seen this variation. Awesome piece

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by sayheykid54

I was fortunate to purchase this in my local area. Glad to add it to my collection.

The 1935 “pennant version” of this (currently for sale on eBay at a very high price) is the oldest of which I am aware showing a scroll or list of player names. The 1934 WS Tigers has a starting lineup (which was never used). Does anyone know an older pennant with a partial or full roster?

[rlevy]

I have been searching for a vintage Dodgers flag (burgee) and finally found one. It is rather large (over 8’ x 5’), and was supposedly flown during the 1967 season at some point. Kyle’s great blog regarding these burgees does show several other years of Dodgers burgees flying at the Stadium, however I have been unable to locate 1967 home opening day photos or any other ones showing the centerfield flags (or the Dodgers posing with the burgee as they sometimes did before the WS) and was hoping maybe someone on the forum might have one.
The closest I could find was a drawing in an ad on the inside of the back cover of the 1967 yearbook which clearly doesn't qualify as a photomatch .

I did confirm that the tagging is correct for the period as the manufacturer added an eagle to their logo in the late 1960’s. It certainly wasn’t the best World Series for the Dodgers as they were swept by the Orioles, and Koufax subsequently retired at the end of the season, which may account for the lack of interest in hoisting it up.

For those of us old enough to remember, there was actually a time when winning the league pennant was a big deal. Now, if you don’t win the World Series the season is considered a bust.

Rick

IMG_6451 reduced.jpg
1967 Yearbook depiction reduced.jpg

[ooo-ribay]

Awesome piece, Rick! I wouldn’t be surprised if one of the Net54 detectives can find you a photomatch…..that’s how I was able to pinpoint a bunting I just posted in the “large items” thread to the first game ever at Candlestick.

[rlevy]

Rob, great idea, I will cross post over in that thread. Can't hurt to have more eyes trying to hunt it down. Your banners are amazing. Is that acrylic you have over the large ones?

Rick

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by rlevy

Rob, great idea, I will cross post over in that thread. Can't hurt to have more eyes trying to hunt it down. Your banners are amazing. Is that acrylic you have over the large ones?

Rick

Yes, plexi/acrylic, whatever you want to call it. In our old house, the Wrigley flag was on the ceiling.

[thetahat]

I hope no one here bought this. Fugazi

https://ebay.us/m/8Ebixt

[Domer05]

Not I....

What's off on it?

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by Domer05

Not I....

What's off on it?

The real ones were cloth, not felt, and the graphics are a bit off. The screen has a rubberized look to it. Also the spine is sewn shut on both ends, you can’t slide a dowel in. Whoever tried to fake these did a decent job but left enough clues to identify it as a copy.

[thetahat]

Vintage version … subtle differences in scroll and printing near 1955

[Fballguy]

Haven't found much worth buying lately so my itchy trigger finger got the best of me and I impulsively bought this beast. About 5 feet long. Has some age to it...and it was cheap. Figured I'd at least add it to my "Why the F did I buy this pile".

But imagine my surprise and excitment when I was able to photo match the banner to the Juice's record breaking 1968 Heisman Trophy winning season!

Yes...It's great to be a Trojan...But sometimes it's just better to be lucky.

Banner.jpg

OJ USE 1968.jpg

[ooo-ribay]

That is awesome!

“It’s great to have a whole slew of high priced lawyers!”

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

That is awesome!

Awesome to get OJ in his garage...

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

Awesome to get OJ in his garage...

Hide the knives!

[UKCardGuy]

I don't have it in hand yet but I have discovered a new version of the Grommet pennant series. It's 1914 Champions but the Boston Bees rather than the Boston Braves.

I think this helps to prove Greg's hypothesis in post #9366 that the Grommet "Champions" pennants were produced for the HoF museum opening in 1939.

As you'll be aware, the Braves changed their name to the Bees for a few years between 1936-1940. So it seems that the standard was to use the then current name of the teams on the pennant. That's why this pennant reads Bees instead of Braves. It's also why the 1920 pennant features the Dodgers rather than the "Robins" as they were known in 1920.

Considering that there are "Champions" pennants with dates including 1914, 1920, 1936 and 1939, I think it helps to establish the pennants are from 1939.

In 1939 these were the players inducted (including those from the veteran's committee):

• Ty Cobb (Tigers, Athletics)
• Walter Johnson (Senators)
• Christy Mathewson (Giants)
• Honus Wagner (Pirates)
• Babe Ruth (Yankees)
• Nap Lajoie (Indians)
• Tris Speaker (Red Sox, Indians, Senators, Athletics)
• Cy Young (Spiders/Indians, Cardinals, Red Sox, Braves)
• George Wright (Red Sox, Braves, Providence Greys)
• Grover Alexander (Phillies, Cubs, Cardinals)
• Eddie Collins (Athletics, White Sox)
• Willie Keeler (Giants, Dodgers, Orioles, Yankees)
• George Sisler (Browns, Senators, Braves)
• Cap Anson (Rockford Forest, Athletics, Cubs)
• Buck Ewing (Troy Trojans, Giants, Spiders/Indians, Reds)
• Candy Cummings (Reds, NY Mutuals, Baltimore Canaries, Hartford Dark Blues))
• Charles Radbourn (Providence Greys, Braves, Red Sox, Reds)

It seems possible that the pennants were celebrating the last world series appearance for the teams that the inductees played with. e.g. 1936 Yankees (Ruth) and Giants; 1920 Indians (Tris Speaker) and Dodgers (Keeler);

So far these are the known Champions Grommet pennants:

1914 Bees
1915 Phillies
1918 Red Sox
1919 White Sox
1920 Dodgers
1920 Indians
1933 Senators
1935 Tigers
1936 Yankees
1936 Giants

There are Grommet pennants for the Cardinals and Browns but those aren't Champions versions. I'm going on the assumption that they only produced pennants for teams that were in the MLB at the time - so no Providence Greys, Troy Trojans or Hartford Dark Blues. All of this implies that Championship grommet pennants might exist for the Pirates, Athletics, Reds, Cardinals, Browns and Cubs,

Going one step further, I wonder if the players on some of the pennants are based on the HoF inductees. Is the player on the Yankees pennant meant to be Babe Ruth? Doesn't the player on the Senators pennant resemble this photo of Walter Johnson? Doesn't the player on my Braves/Bees pennant look a lot like George Sisler?

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by UKCardGuy

I don't have it in hand yet but I have discovered a new version of the Grommet pennant series. It's 1914 Champions but the Boston Bees rather than the Boston Braves.

I think this helps to prove Greg's hypothesis in post #9366 that the Grommet "Champions" pennants were produced for the HoF museum opening in 1939.

As you'll be aware, the Braves changed their name to the Bees for a few years between 1936-1940. So it seems that the standard was to use the then current name of the teams on the pennant. That's why this pennant reads Bees instead of Braves. It's also why the 1920 pennant features the Dodgers rather than the "Robins" as they were known in 1920.

Considering that there are "Champions" pennants with dates including 1914, 1920, 1936 and 1939, I think it helps to establish the pennants are from 1939.

In 1939 these were the players inducted (including those from the veteran's committee):

• Ty Cobb (Tigers, Athletics)
• Walter Johnson (Senators)
• Christy Mathewson (Giants)
• Honus Wagner (Pirates)
• Babe Ruth (Yankees)
• Nap Lajoie (Indians)
• Tris Speaker (Red Sox, Indians, Senators, Athletics)
• Cy Young (Spiders/Indians, Cardinals, Red Sox, Braves)
• George Wright (Red Sox, Braves, Providence Greys)
• Grover Alexander (Phillies, Cubs, Cardinals)
• Eddie Collins (Athletics, White Sox)
• Willie Keeler (Giants, Dodgers, Orioles, Yankees)
• George Sisler (Browns, Senators, Braves)
• Cap Anson (Rockford Forest, Athletics, Cubs)
• Buck Ewing (Troy Trojans, Giants, Spiders/Indians, Reds)
• Candy Cummings (Reds, NY Mutuals, Baltimore Canaries, Hartford Dark Blues))
• Charles Radbourn (Providence Greys, Braves, Red Sox, Reds)

It seems possible that the pennants were celebrating the last world series appearance for the teams that the inductees played with. e.g. 1936 Yankees (Ruth) and Giants; 1920 Indians (Tris Speaker) and Dodgers (Keeler);

So far these are the known Champions Grommet pennants:

1914 Bees
1915 Phillies
1918 Red Sox
1919 White Sox
1920 Dodgers
1920 Indians
1933 Senators
1935 Tigers
1936 Yankees
1936 Giants

There are Grommet pennants for the Cardinals and Browns but those aren't Champions versions. I'm going on the assumption that they only produced pennants for teams that were in the MLB at the time - so no Providence Greys, Troy Trojans or Hartford Dark Blues. All of this implies that Championship grommet pennants might exist for the Pirates, Athletics, Reds, Cardinals, Browns and Cubs,

Going one step further, I wonder if the players on some of the pennants are based on the HoF inductees. Is the player on the Yankees pennant meant to be Babe Ruth? Doesn't the player on the Senators pennant resemble this photo of Walter Johnson? Doesn't the player on my Braves/Bees pennant look a lot like George Sisler?

Gary … wow that’s still a super cool pennant, it may not be 1914 but still 85+ years old and great condition. And yes it does provide a major clue to solving the mystery.

I have seen a Championship grommet Athletics and I am pretty sure I’ve seen a Pirates.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by UKCardGuy

Going one step further, I wonder if the players on some of the pennants are based on the HoF inductees. Is the player on the Yankees pennant meant to be Babe Ruth? Doesn't the player on the Senators pennant resemble this photo of Walter Johnson? Doesn't the player on my Braves/Bees pennant look a lot like George Sisler?

Can you provide a picture of the '33 Senators? Thanks.

[UKCardGuy]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Can you provide a picture of the '33 Senators? Thanks.

Here you go, Hank. This isn't mine, I think Greg posted it before.

[ooo-ribay]

Excellent hypothesizing, Gary! I think you’re on to something. 👍

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by UKCardGuy

Here you go, Hank. This isn't mine, I think Greg posted it before.

Thanks. I'd guess that was indeed based a bit loosely on the classic WaJo photo.

[jsage]

Outstanding Pennant,
Jerry Sage

[Vintagedeputy]

That Senators pennant is fantastic.

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by UKCardGuy

I don't have it in hand yet but I have discovered a new version of the Grommet pennant series. It's 1914 Champions but the Boston Bees rather than the Boston Braves.

I think this helps to prove Greg's hypothesis in post #9366 that the Grommet "Champions" pennants were produced for the HoF museum opening in 1939.

As you'll be aware, the Braves changed their name to the Bees for a few years between 1936-1940. So it seems that the standard was to use the then current name of the teams on the pennant. That's why this pennant reads Bees instead of Braves. It's also why the 1920 pennant features the Dodgers rather than the "Robins" as they were known in 1920.

Considering that there are "Champions" pennants with dates including 1914, 1920, 1936 and 1939, I think it helps to establish the pennants are from 1939.

In 1939 these were the players inducted (including those from the veteran's committee):

• Ty Cobb (Tigers, Athletics)
• Walter Johnson (Senators)
• Christy Mathewson (Giants)
• Honus Wagner (Pirates)
• Babe Ruth (Yankees)
• Nap Lajoie (Indians)
• Tris Speaker (Red Sox, Indians, Senators, Athletics)
• Cy Young (Spiders/Indians, Cardinals, Red Sox, Braves)
• George Wright (Red Sox, Braves, Providence Greys)
• Grover Alexander (Phillies, Cubs, Cardinals)
• Eddie Collins (Athletics, White Sox)
• Willie Keeler (Giants, Dodgers, Orioles, Yankees)
• George Sisler (Browns, Senators, Braves)
• Cap Anson (Rockford Forest, Athletics, Cubs)
• Buck Ewing (Troy Trojans, Giants, Spiders/Indians, Reds)
• Candy Cummings (Reds, NY Mutuals, Baltimore Canaries, Hartford Dark Blues))
• Charles Radbourn (Providence Greys, Braves, Red Sox, Reds)

It seems possible that the pennants were celebrating the last world series appearance for the teams that the inductees played with. e.g. 1936 Yankees (Ruth) and Giants; 1920 Indians (Tris Speaker) and Dodgers (Keeler);

So far these are the known Champions Grommet pennants:

1914 Bees
1915 Phillies
1918 Red Sox
1919 White Sox
1920 Dodgers
1920 Indians
1933 Senators
1935 Tigers
1936 Yankees
1936 Giants

There are Grommet pennants for the Cardinals and Browns but those aren't Champions versions. I'm going on the assumption that they only produced pennants for teams that were in the MLB at the time - so no Providence Greys, Troy Trojans or Hartford Dark Blues. All of this implies that Championship grommet pennants might exist for the Pirates, Athletics, Reds, Cardinals, Browns and Cubs,

Going one step further, I wonder if the players on some of the pennants are based on the HoF inductees. Is the player on the Yankees pennant meant to be Babe Ruth? Doesn't the player on the Senators pennant resemble this photo of Walter Johnson? Doesn't the player on my Braves/Bees pennant look a lot like George Sisler?

Gary, (and Greg) solid theory! I think the Bees/1914 discrepancy does suggest this pennant was made closer to 1939 than 1914. Good catch. (I would have just assumed they were known as the Bees in 1914....)

But actually I think your best evidence is the mere fact that it's unlikely a pennant maker would maintain the exact same design + construction over a 25 year period. Five, maybe 10 years, okay. But 25? Most pennant makers would have folded or transitioned to a new look by then.

Two questions for the group: (1) Has anyone found an image of the elusive '15 Phillies and '18 Red Sox grommet pennants they can share? (2) What made us zero in on the HoF opening as the source/inspiration for these?

[ooo-ribay]

Have you covered these in your blog, Kyle? I know they’ve ben shown a few at a time throughout this thread, but I’d love to see them all in one place. I’m jonesing for some new pennantfever content! Weren’t you going to cover ABCO or some name similar to that?

[UKCardGuy]

Originally Posted by Domer05

Gary, (and Greg) solid theory! I think the Bees/1914 discrepancy does suggest this pennant was made closer to 1939 than 1914. Good catch. (I would have just assumed they were known as the Bees in 1914....)

But actually I think your best evidence is the mere fact that it's unlikely a pennant maker would maintain the exact same design + construction over a 25 year period. Five, maybe 10 years, okay. But 25? Most pennant makers would have folded or transitioned to a new look by then.

Two questions for the group: (1) Has anyone found an image of the elusive '15 Phillies and '18 Red Sox grommet pennants they can share? (2) What made us zero in on the HoF opening as the source/inspiration for these?

It was Greg who first proposed the idea that these were from the HoF.

But the more I've looked at these pennants, the more that makes sense.

• Both the Dodgers and the Bees were not known by those names in 1920 and 1914, respectively.
  
  I've started looking online for HoF photos from 1939.
• The 25 year span of these pennants
• The last known year for the Champions Grommet pennants is 1936.
• The Braves were only known as the Bees from 1936-40
• The player images on the pennants align with known photographs of the players in the HoF at the time of the museum opening
• The HoF museum opened on June 12th, 1939
• The fact that they have grommets would make them suited to hanging in a display such as in the HoF).

My working theory was that the dates relate to the last time each team was in the world series. That works for all of the teams except the Yankees and Giants. The Yankees and Giants were also in the WS in 1937 and Yankees were there in 1938.

With regards to the 1939 Grommet Pennants for the Cardinals and the Browns. These don't have the word "Champions" on the spine. I'm not sure if that's because these were issued separately from the HoF ceremony or something else. But I suspect that's why Greg mentioned it might be a St. Louis manufacturer.

Maybe these were issued to celebrate the HoF inductions each year in 1936, 1937, 1938 and 1939. That would explain why the Yankees and Giants have 1936 as Ruth and Mathewson were inducted in 1936.

In post #8993, Greg said that he had photos of the Red Sox and Phillies pennants but the owner ask for it not to be shared. I respect that but is that because they don't want to show other items in their collection that are around it? If that's the case, maybe you could crop the photos to just show the pennants?

I'd also love to see photos of the Athletics and the Pirates Championship Grommet pennants.

I've started to search for photos of the HoF in 1939. If anyone has an upcoming trip to Cooperstown, maybe it's something the museum would be willing to let you look through some photo archives of the opening ceremony and museum?

[Domer05]

Like I said, well argued theory Gary and Greg. I would only push back on one point: the Dodgers were not exclusively known as the Robins in 1920--or any other year, really.

In fact, there's never been a pennant bearing the name "Robins" to my knowledge. The 1916 NL champs pennant I previously reproduced on Pennant Factory ID'd the team as "Dodgers" (see: https://pennantfactory.weebly.com/bl...champs-pennant ). Moreover, the 1920 World's Series program identified the team as "Dodgers" despite the fact that Wilbert Robinson himself was prominently featured on the cover. Both items were made during the height of Robinson's popularity; yet, the name "Dodgers" was featured on them.

I only wish your theory got us closer to ID'ing the mystery maker behind these grommet pennants.

I also spent some time looking for HoF dedication photos from the 1939 grand opening, hoping to find a spectator or two waving a pennant--but came up with nothing.

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

Have you covered these in your blog, Kyle? I know they’ve ben shown a few at a time throughout this thread, but I’d love to see them all in one place. I’m jonesing for some new pennantfever content! Weren’t you going to cover ABCO or some name similar to that?

I did indeed. I think I now have images of all known grommet pennants from the championship series, plus a few others. See:

https://pennantfactory.weebly.com/bl...champs-pennant

[thetahat]

Here is my 1939 Browns

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by Domer05

I did indeed. I think I now have images of all known grommet pennants from the championship series, plus a few others. See:

https://pennantfactory.weebly.com/bl...champs-pennant

You’re the man.

Go Brewers!

[UKCardGuy]

Originally Posted by Domer05

Like I said, well argued theory Gary and Greg. I would only push back on one point: the Dodgers were not exclusively known as the Robins in 1920--or any other year, really.

In fact, there's never been a pennant bearing the name "Robins" to my knowledge. The 1916 NL champs pennant I previously reproduced on Pennant Factory ID'd the team as "Dodgers" (see: https://pennantfactory.weebly.com/bl...champs-pennant ). Moreover, the 1920 World's Series program identified the team as "Dodgers" despite the fact that Wilbert Robinson himself was prominently featured on the cover. Both items were made during the height of Robinson's popularity; yet, the name "Dodgers" was featured on them.

I only wish your theory got us closer to ID'ing the mystery maker behind these grommet pennants.

I also spent some time looking for HoF dedication photos from the 1939 grand opening, hoping to find a spectator or two waving a pennant--but came up with nothing.

Thanks Kyle. I concede that the Dodgers were commonly called the Dodgers in 1920. But we know for certain that the Braves were only called the Bees from 1936-1940.

With regards to the HoF pictures, I'm wondering if they'd be inside in the main hall or on a display. The use of grommets on pennants sold to fans seems an extra expense and complication that they wouldn't have needed. The grommets seems to be most useful if the pennants were being displayed hanging down in a display.

[bigfanNY]

Won this pennant as part of a group of items. What I know is it comes from estate of player from the 1951 Team named Margaret Carroll. She signed with the Peaches at the age of 16 pitched one season then left pro ball. Very pretty and my first few searches I cannot come up with any sales. Lots of Rockford peaches pennants but almost all are later reprints produced after the film. I would appreciate any help.

[perezfan]

Great stuff! You don’t see the Mini versions very often… especially those that come from an actual player’s estate. Awesome!

Here’s mine (3/4 size original). The reproduction versions are quite obvious (and unattractive, IMHO). Great to see authentic examples!

[bigfanNY]

Whoa!! That's a Beauty. Yes the Peach colored replicas are not very attractive. If you blow up the picture I posted the Obituary is worth the read. Funny how a lifetime gets summed up in a few Paragraphs. Especially the lifetime of a Woman who was a Professional athlete in 1951 at the age of 16!!.
As for the pennant the Peach on the Dark Blue is what attracted me to the lot. Really didn’t think I stood a chance at winning it. But with so many auctions lots,especially this time of year, to many times the right eyes just dont get on even the best items.

[perezfan]

You said it! These auctions can be fickle, and the prices realized depend so much upon timing who actually sees it. Awesome lot!