Ohtani or Ruth?

[Snapolit1]

Folks are entitled to their opinions, no matter how stupid they might be. Hell, I've met a few people in my life who have seriously maintained that The Beatles were overrated.

[Balticfox]

Yeah. Mickey Mantle, Elvis Presley, Michael Jackson/Jordan and Taylor Swift are all far more overrated than the Beatles.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by Tomi

We're just being smartasses. Don't take this stuff too seriously.

And some of us just roll our eyes when we see how present day entertainers including professional athletes are pampered.

[Fandom0610]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

Yeah. Mickey Mantle, Elvis Presley, Michael Jackson/Jordan and Taylor Swift are all far more overrated than the Beatles.

Now thats funny. Michael Jackson/Jordan more overrated than the Beatles???? Whatever youre smoking get off of it now!

[BioCRN]

If Ohtani played in the past they'd stick him in RF/LF depending on how much they value his arm and would play a boring OF, maybe a bit below average at worst.

He's fast. He's got a great arm (accurate and fast). He's playing DH out of team preference.

Let's not pretend he is absolutely incapable of playing passable defense. We've got plenty of tape seeing him do it in Japan and his legs are just fine. There's video you can watch yourself.

He's an all-star quality pitcher. He's an all-star quality hitter. He has no peer, now or historic that's on his level.

[steve B]

A few thoughts.

I didn't vote. Still undecided, and leaning way toward appreciating both as fantastic players.

On Ruth not having a great fastball - In one of his films he teaches a kid how to throw a knuckleball. That surprised me and in a thread we sort of came to understand that wasn't just an acting thing. Knuckleball pitchers generally don't have great fastballs. Despite todays obsession with speed many great pitchers didn't have amazing fastballs. They were pitchers. The difference is something that gets lost in analytics, which oddly make for better pitchers.

Players being "soft" today? - In some ways yes. Players back in Ruths era were generally paid well compared to regular workers, but still worked in the off season. Sometimes in physically demanding jobs like farming. I forget who said it but one oldtimer said we wouldn't see a lot of complete games until the pool of players once again included a lot of farm kids who'd bring in tons of hay bales then go play a couple games.
I don't see that happening.
How many players were great until so,e now fixable injury put an end to their career? How many more hung on playing hurt making an injury that could have healed into an essentially career ending injury.
Todays guys do take off days for seemingly trivial things. Or things we don't really understand. I used to wonder and gripe about Dwight Evans back spasms, what silliness! Then I had a couple, with my couch potato muscles..... Sorry Dwight, I had no idea. But taking it easy and not doing certain things for a while made mine go away
If an injury the older guys would have played through might take a year or two off someones career, at a few million a year, I totally understand sitting out a game or two. Is playing through an achy knee or shoulder worth 6-10 million or more?

Since I've touched on talent pool.
Now it's international. But... One speaker at the club asked us if we knew how many players were in organized ball now vs say 1940, Apparently at the time the minors and independent leagues were about 17,500 players. in 1940 the estimate was 175,000 but counted the occasionally very competetive industrial and semi pro leagues. He said that he stuck around the majors as long as he did because he was easy about pay and not complaining. Guy who were "difficult" got replaced very quickly. Yes, if you were a Williams or DiMaggio you could be a bit difficult, but a more average player just got replaced.
So I sort of think that Ruth was playing against some pretty good players who had risen to the top of that 175000 person crowd. Balanced against not playing against all the players in the negro leagues.

Different people handle pressure differently. To some a game is just a game, playoffs or not.

Sort of unrelated
Wen I first saw the thing about how many had hit 3 homers in a playoff game it struck me that when I was in High school that number changed from 1 to 2 and stayed there a while.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by steve B

On Ruth not having a great fastball - In one of his films he teaches a kid how to throw a knuckleball. That surprised me and in a thread we sort of came to understand that wasn't just an acting thing. Knuckleball pitchers generally don't have great fastballs.

Interesting! My opinion of Babe Ruth just went up a notch.

Originally Posted by steve B

Despite todays obsession with speed many great pitchers didn't have amazing fastballs. They were pitchers.

"Hitting is timing; pitching consists of upsetting timing." - Warren Spahn

'Nuff said.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

Interesting! My opinion of Babe Ruth just went up a notch.



"Hitting is timing; pitching consists of upsetting timing." - Warren Spahn

'Nuff said.

Good pitching beats good hitting and vice versa -- Casey Stengel.

[visualplane]

Asking a vintage group to pick between a vintage guy vs a modern. No bias for sure.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by visualplane

Asking a vintage group to pick between a vintage guy vs a modern. No bias for sure.

There is both recency bias and nostalgia bias in all these types of discussions.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by visualplane

Asking a vintage group to pick between a vintage guy vs a modern. No bias for sure.

I would have voted both if given the option, I'll bet most would have

[MJRaider]

Originally Posted by BioCRN

If Ohtani played in the past they'd stick him in RF/LF depending on how much they value his arm and would play a boring OF, maybe a bit below average at worst.

He's fast. He's got a great arm (accurate and fast). He's playing DH out of team preference.

Let's not pretend he is absolutely incapable of playing passable defense. We've got plenty of tape seeing him do it in Japan and his legs are just fine. There's video you can watch yourself.

He's an all-star quality pitcher. He's an all-star quality hitter. He has no peer, now or historic that's on his level.

This.

[doug.goodman]

Every one deserves to be paid as much as they can get themselves paid.

To me a salary cap is the same as telling the company I work for that I will not allow them to pay me any more money, even if they want to.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by BioCRN

In a world where an owner buys the TB Rays for 1.7 billion dollars for a team that doesn't even have a stadium to play in right now...the players can take all the money they can squeeze from the owners.

Anything less would be stupid. It would make you a stupid worker. It would mean you have no idea what your value is. It would make you a sucker.

It is the most anti-capitalist thing in the world to not achieve your value. I can't even imagine defending devaluing yourself to do the work the person is hiring you not only won't do, but can't do.

Get real. Know your value.

Never did I say that I would expect the players not to try to get whatever they can get. I merely said that I reserve the right to sneer at their high pay. And I can and will just say "No!" if I think they're silly overpaid.

So the players can bargain for whatever they can get, the owners should be allowed to pay as little as they need to run their businesses (the last time they collectively exercised this right though it was called collusion and undercut what should have been their right) and finally I still have a right not to cheer for whatever the final denouement. Like I say, I reserve the right to say "That's silly! I won't support this nonsense with my dollar votes." For whatever reason some of you think that I should cheer gargantuan player salaries because these salaries are being paid by billionaires. That detail though is to me irrelevant. I compare players' salaries to what the average white collar/blue collar working stiff earns and then decide accordingly..

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

Every one deserves to be paid as much as they can get themselves paid.

True.

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

To me a salary cap is the same as telling the company I work for that I will not allow them to pay me any more money, even if they want to.

If the owners choose to agree among themselves not to pay above a certain amount, that's their right. No one should hold a gun to their heads and say you can't come to this agreement. If the players don't like this agreement, nobody is forcing them to stay within MLB. They can play elsewhere or do something else entirely. It's still their choice.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by Fandom0610

Now thats funny. Michael Jackson/Jordan more overrated than the Beatles???? Whatever youre smoking get off of it now!

Hmmmm. I dunno.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTzcn2bZ-yQ

I'm just not impressed.

[Fandom0610]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

Hmmmm. I dunno.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTzcn2bZ-yQ

I'm just not impressed.

The Beatles are FAR more overrated. Saying the best basketball player in the world is overrated makes tons of sense...lol

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by Fandom0610

Saying the best basketball player in the world is overrated makes tons of sense.

But Wilt Chamberlain hadn't yet been mentioned!

[Fandom0610]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

But Wilt Chamberlain hadn't yet been mentioned!

Wilt isnt the G.O.A.T. Simple

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Fandom0610

The Beatles are FAR more overrated. Saying the best basketball player in the world is overrated makes tons of sense...lol

I would be curious as to how a band whose recording career was about 7 years and produced 21 #1 singles and 19 #1 albums could be overrated. That is before we consider how they completely changed music and the music industry.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by rats60

I would be curious as to how a band whose recording career was about 7 years and produced 21 #1 singles and 19 #1 albums could be overrated. That is before we consider how they completely changed music and the music industry.

Just keep telling yourself they were professionals doing it for the money, no need to get emotional...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Folks are entitled to their opinions, no matter how stupid they might be. Hell, I've met a few people in my life who have seriously maintained that The Beatles were overrated.

They're no Limp Bizkit, that's for sure.

[here2havefun]

Maybe I'm too young for N54, but I would prefer if Ohtani didn't have to drive for UberEats in the offseason.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by here2havefun

Maybe I'm too young for N54, but I would prefer if Ohtani didn't have to drive for UberEats in the offseason.

Why not? Those lazy pro athletes finally have to work for a living and the billionaire owners get to keep even more of their hard-earned money. It's a win-win!

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by here2havefun

Maybe I'm too young for N54, but I would prefer if Ohtani didn't have to drive for UberEats in the offseason.

That concept troubles me not at all. Work hard all winter so you can devote your summers to playing a little boys' game.

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

Why not? Those lazy pro athletes finally have to work for a living and the billionaire owners get to keep even more of their hard-earned money. It's a win-win!

The billionaire owners never cross my mind. Perhaps it's because they don't appear on any bubble gum card sets but that's just the way it is.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

The billionaire owners never cross my mind. Perhaps it's because they don't appear on any bubble gum card sets but that's just the way it is.

Perhaps they should cross your mind. The reason player salaries are so high is because the billionaires have enough money to pay them.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

Perhaps they should cross your mind. The reason player salaries are so high is because the billionaires have enough money to pay them.

Perhaps. My heart though bleeds for neither.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

Perhaps they should cross your mind. The reason player salaries are so high is because the billionaires have enough money to pay them.

That billionaire owner observation is the common retort when anyone suggests that players are overpaid these days. But it misses the point. Consider.

As a fan I'm disinterested in watching the owners work. I certainly have no interest in buying tickets to do so. Nor I think does any fan idolize owners nor are they hounded for autographs. And I'm no exception. I give not a thought to the owners.

But as fans we are expected to cheer for the players toiling (actually just playing a kids' game) on our favourite teams. Well that would be easier to understand if they were superbly talented athletes sacrificing to play a game they love. But the players certainly aren't sacrificing these days - or even just earning a very decent wage. They're paid and pampered like demigods. So why should we as fans live and die with their on field exploits? My own father used to occasionally make that same point back in the 1960's when I was a kid "Why do you get so sick about these games? They're all professionals you know. They're only playing for the money."

And of course back in those days players were merely well paid. Salaries have increased a quantum leap since then. Yes as a kid I viscerally identified with my teams and the players on those teams. My emotional attachment was there in spades. But that's faded now. Now my interest is more intellectual. That of course may just be because I'm sixty years older. But I still think it's rather silly for a full grown man to viscerally identify and contribute to the mega salaries of present day players from his own relatively meager earnings.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by here2havefun

Maybe I'm too young for N54, but I would prefer if Ohtani didn't have to drive for UberEats in the offseason.

Probably shouldn’t have deferred $68M of his $70M annual salary.

But I’m guessing New Balance is making him whole.