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  #1  
Old 05-26-2010, 10:35 AM
brett brett is offline
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Originally Posted by Bob Lemke View Post
Conversely, we do not note "cameo" appaearances, nor is there additional book value, on other cards such as 1971T #511 Chris Short, with Pete Rose in the background.
BIG difference... in this card Joe Jackson isn't in the background, he's the centerpiece!
Last edited by brett; 05-26-2010 at 10:51 AM.
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  #2  
Old 05-26-2010, 10:40 AM
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Great thread. I am also in the camp of "It's probably him, but we can't be 100% sure".

Also, I always thought of the T202 centerpiece as more of a novelty. If I was collecting Joe Jackson items, and we knew for sure it was him, I would certainly pay a nice premium. However without being 100% certain, which we aren't, I can't see that happening.

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Last edited by Robextend; 05-26-2010 at 10:41 AM.
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  #3  
Old 05-26-2010, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Robextend View Post
Great thread. If I was collecting Joe Jackson items, and we knew for sure it was him, I would certainly pay a nice premium. However without being 100% certain, which we aren't, I can't see that happening.

Rob
It's 100% unless people haven't read this entire thread or are just out of touch with reality. Remember, there's still a large percentage of society who deny that dinosaurs existed or that the Holocaust happened.
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  #4  
Old 05-26-2010, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by brett View Post
It's 100% unless people haven't read this entire thread or are just out of touch with reality. Remember, there's still a large percentage of society who deny that dinosaurs existed or that the Holocaust happened.
Comparing photo identification on a baseball card with the existence of dinosaurs or the Holocaust is a tad ridiculous.
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  #5  
Old 05-26-2010, 11:08 AM
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I agree with all the comparisons to T200 prices, I think the intitial hype and excitement will bring 5X to the T202 and after the novelty wears off will drop to about 3x.
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  #6  
Old 05-26-2010, 11:10 AM
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Thanks Rob. I was insulted by the Holocaust analogy too. Not appropriate.
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  #7  
Old 05-26-2010, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by barrysloate View Post
Thanks Rob. I was insulted by the Holocaust analogy too. Not appropriate.
Relax, I'm more jewish than matzo ball soup. I used an extreme example to show that it's not surprising that people would be in denial about something as trivial as this when there are still brain-dead morons out there who refuse to acknowledge something as major as the two examples I used.
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  #8  
Old 05-26-2010, 11:10 AM
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Brett, it was a great observation, and lots of people have contributed to a fascinating discussion and analysis. There was absolutely no need for your contentiousness though -- much better to be a consensus builder and treat people politely and with respect than to just dismiss them and mock them and taunt them. You continue to do yourself a disservice with that 'tude.
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  #9  
Old 05-26-2010, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Brett, it was a great observation, and lots of people have contributed to a fascinating discussion and analysis. There was absolutely no need for your contentiousness though -- much better to be a consensus builder and treat people politely and with respect than to just dismiss them and mock them and taunt them. You continue to do yourself a disservice with that 'tude.
The 'tude has been brought on from people doubting me when I'm telling them what I KNOW. I agree with your overall opinion though. If I'm still welcome on this board when this thread is over I think you'll see a kinder, gentler, more playful version of me. It's just that I'm very passionate about this issue now and I don't like people confusing others just because they think they're smarter than anybody else (which they've now proven that they're definitely not).
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  #10  
Old 05-26-2010, 01:01 PM
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Come on Brett, you can't just walk into a room of strangers, say you KNOW something, and then get pissed off if they doubt you or hold you to proof -- which by the way you never provided; by far the best evidence was provided by Greg. Stick around, but chill.
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  #11  
Old 05-26-2010, 01:01 PM
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I know it's probably not the case, but it sounds like Brett is ready to list 50 of these T202 cards on EBAY. And the fact that some people don't feel comfortable saying that it is definitively Joe Jackson is pissing him off.

As others have said, no one is saying it isn't him, they are just hesitant to say 100% that it is. There is a big difference which you are failing to see.
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  #12  
Old 05-26-2010, 01:04 PM
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Brett... nice find and I am in your camp; but
You can't convince everybody. Why can't that be good enough.

When some members continued to hold out, instead of saying to each his own, you starting throwing barbs at them... not cool!
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  #13  
Old 05-26-2010, 01:05 PM
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I think you'll see a kinder, gentler, more playful version of me. It's just that I'm very passionate ....
This sounds like it belongs in Playboy's Playmate Data Sheet.
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  #14  
Old 05-26-2010, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robextend View Post
Comparing photo identification on a baseball card with the existence of dinosaurs or the Holocaust is a tad ridiculous.
Ya think?
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  #15  
Old 05-26-2010, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Robextend View Post
Comparing photo identification on a baseball card with the existence of dinosaurs or the Holocaust is a tad ridiculous.
To me, the fact that anybody would still deny that this is Joe Jackson is a tad ridiculous.
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  #16  
Old 05-26-2010, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by brett View Post
To me, the fact that anybody would still deny that this is Joe Jackson is a tad ridiculous.
Please answer this:

Anyone that is not 100% sure that it is Jackson is absolutely wrong and as you put in an earlier post "brain-dead"?
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Last edited by Robextend; 05-26-2010 at 12:56 PM.
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  #17  
Old 05-26-2010, 01:30 PM
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Please answer this:

Anyone that is not 100% sure that it is Jackson is absolutely wrong and as you put in an earlier post "brain-dead"?
At this point, yes.
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  #18  
Old 05-26-2010, 11:40 AM
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Remember, there's still a large percentage of society who deny that dinosaurs existed or that the Holocaust happened.
In Iran perhaps.
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  #19  
Old 05-26-2010, 11:47 AM
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In Iran perhaps.
Is that where Mel Gibson's father lives.
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  #20  
Old 05-26-2010, 11:55 AM
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Sort all the threads by "Views" and this thread is #7!

Sort by "Replies" and it's #5!
Last edited by 4815162342; 05-26-2010 at 11:56 AM. Reason: I meant replies
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  #21  
Old 05-26-2010, 12:11 PM
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The analysis of the T202 has ended. The remainder of this thread is devoted to personal attacks.
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  #22  
Old 05-26-2010, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by calvindog View Post
In Iran perhaps.
Or Alabama...

Great Post, Rhett. I have learned in writing about the hobby to never be surprised when a long-accepted piece of hobby orthodoxy is overturned with new evidence or when a new discovery pops up--that's what makes it fun...
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Last edited by Exhibitman; 05-26-2010 at 12:49 PM.
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  #23  
Old 05-26-2010, 12:54 PM
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Or Alabama...


Hell, I'm pretty sure it's in the Texas history books that way.
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  #24  
Old 05-28-2010, 08:08 AM
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Hell, I'm pretty sure it's in the Texas history books that way.
They have books down there???
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  #25  
Old 05-26-2010, 10:59 AM
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BIG difference... in this card Joe Jackson isn't in the background, he's the centerpiece!
Brett - your off base here - the standard convention for cataloging T202s is based on the end panels and the title of the center panel. Consider the Lajoie I posted about above. He is even mentioned in the text on the back, but that card is not cataloged as Lajoie (cataloged, as are all T202s, by the title, this one is "A Great Batsman"), and is not part of any "Lajoie master set." It's just a T202 that has Lajoie in the center panel with another player; same here. In fact that one has much better credentials then this one for what you are suggesting - the back uses his name and the text on the back focuses on the batter (as opposed to the one in question which focuses on the 3B).

To suggest this card "features" Joe Jax assumes the manufactures intended him to be the centerpiece. Bob's verbiage is much more apt - he is a cameo on this card - the printers of this card wouldn't have cared if Joe Jax or any other player was being thrown out at 3rd.
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  #26  
Old 05-28-2010, 05:11 PM
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A closer parallel would be the "A Great Batsman" card which has Lajoie in the center, but not on the sides. According to the SCD that one carries no premium over a common even though Lajoie is IDed by name on the back.
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Originally Posted by Matt View Post
Brett - your off base here - the standard convention for cataloging T202s is based on the end panels and the title of the center panel. Consider the Lajoie I posted about above. He is even mentioned in the text on the back, but that card is not cataloged as Lajoie (cataloged, as are all T202s, by the title, this one is "A Great Batsman"), and is not part of any "Lajoie master set." It's just a T202 that has Lajoie in the center panel with another player; same here. In fact that one has much better credentials then this one for what you are suggesting - the back uses his name and the text on the back focuses on the batter (as opposed to the one in question which focuses on the 3B).

To suggest this card "features" Joe Jax assumes the manufactures intended him to be the centerpiece. Bob's verbiage is much more apt - he is a cameo on this card - the printers of this card wouldn't have cared if Joe Jax or any other player was being thrown out at 3rd.
This has been a fascinating thread, and it has been interesting to watch
it unfold, from Brett's initial discovery, to Greg's excellent detective work
in locating the comparison image, to the overall acceptance by the skeptics
here that it is indeed Shoeless Joe (count me as one initially).

I believe Matt's posts, two of which I quoted above, make some excellent
points as well. I feel that even if the hobby accepts Joe's inclusion on
the center panel as fact (which I believe will eventually happen), you will
not see a big increase in the value of this card. Sure, initially we will see
a spike in ending prices, but overall I don't really think anyone will be getting
rich off the new info about this card and its center panel. The card is starting
off as relatively inexpensive, limiting its "upside" for investors.

As others have said, though, I guess time will tell....
Last edited by CW; 05-28-2010 at 08:10 PM.
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  #27  
Old 05-28-2010, 08:05 PM
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  #28  
Old 05-28-2010, 10:23 PM
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Yeah Kevin...I asked the same question in a different thread. It seems like everybody is tired of talking about it. But I thought that one looked similar...and it has the sock too. I think there should be an honest effort to identify every player pictured in all center panels...not just say that one in Joe Jax, then tire of the conversation.

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  #29  
Old 05-29-2010, 08:21 AM
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HOLY CRAP I think you're right!!!! I initially overlooked this one and now that I just went back and looked at this card closer, it definitely appears to be the same player (Shoeless Joe) who's on the "Lord Catches His Man" card with identical facial features, expression, and the tell-tale white wrap on his right ankle only. Now that I just went through all 76 center panel photos in this set with a magnifying glass, these are the only 2 that I believe are Joe Jackson (with the other one already being proven). There are about a dozen or so Cleveland players total on the center panels and most of them can be dismissed because they either mention the specific player's name on the back, are pre-1911 photos in old uniforms from before Shoeless Joe got to Cleveland, or you get a good look at the player's face and can tell that it's clearly NOT Shoeless Joe, or you CAN'T see the player's face whatsoever to get any type of positive ID. You are correct my friend, it looks like you've found the second and last card in the set that can be identified as featuring a young Shoeless Joe Jackson!
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  #30  
Old 05-29-2010, 08:33 AM
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Does this mean another 500 posts?
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  #31  
Old 05-29-2010, 09:11 AM
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Greg, are you undertaking the research again?
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  #32  
Old 05-31-2010, 06:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CW View Post
This has been a fascinating thread, and it has been interesting to watch
it unfold, from Brett's initial discovery, to Greg's excellent detective work
in locating the comparison image, to the overall acceptance by the skeptics
here that it is indeed Shoeless Joe (count me as one initially).

I believe Matt's posts, two of which I quoted above, make some excellent
points as well. I feel that even if the hobby accepts Joe's inclusion on
the center panel as fact (which I believe will eventually happen), you will
not see a big increase in the value of this card. Sure, initially we will see
a spike in ending prices, but overall I don't really think anyone will be getting
rich off the new info about this card and its center panel. The card is starting
off as relatively inexpensive, limiting its "upside" for investors.

As others have said, though, I guess time will tell....
I agree with pretty much everything you said and the collectors will decide what it's worth. Some may feel this card is nothing special, while others believe it's the greatest discovery since sliced bread. Personaly I think it's somewhere in between. While it would be better if he had a side-panel card in this set or a T205 or T206, he doesn't, and so this is all we have of Shoeless Joe in the way of a T card (not to mention the scarcity and ridiculously high prices of his other cards) making me believe that this card will DEFINITELY go up in value and become much more desireable than the common it has been for the last 100 years.
Last edited by brett; 06-01-2010 at 05:55 AM.
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  #33  
Old 05-31-2010, 08:04 AM
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If the center panel read "Jackson Out at Third" we would be talking about a very valuable baseball card.
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  #34  
Old 05-31-2010, 11:20 AM
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Sounds like a photoshop job for Wonka.
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  #35  
Old 06-01-2010, 11:29 AM
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If the center panel read "Jackson Out at Third" we would be talking about a very valuable baseball card.
True Barry, but if it said "Jackson Out at Third" we never would have had all this fun!
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  #36  
Old 06-07-2010, 04:17 PM
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Being as a lot of people were wondering what this discovery would do for the value of the card, the PSA 4 "Lord Carches His Man" card that I put on Ebay last week just sold for $450. I believe that once it becomes commonly known to everybody that this and the "Schaefer on First" card feature Shoeless Joe they'll permanently sell for around $500-$1,000 in EX condition.
Last edited by brett; 06-07-2010 at 05:07 PM.
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