POLL: Who is responsible to reimburse collectors for bad autographs

[Caseyatbat]

I believe the problem is not how they actually market themselves, rather how consumers are perceiving their opinion. Most people just assume it is genuine because it is authenticated by top tier TPA. If people actually just take 30 seconds to read the letter of authenticity it states very clearly this is only their considered opinion, and it should be treated as such.

I don't actually see the TPA's guaranteeing the authenticity of any particular item. (Yes I know they originally did years ago, but not anymore) It is usually the auction house or dealer doing that in the same sentence. An example would be, "for iron clad assurance, this item has been authenticated by PSA"

In the end, dealers want their higher end items authenticated by nationally recognized, major third party authenticators for marketing purposes. For instance, if you were buying a Ty Cobb single singed ball for 20K, would you feel more comfortable buying with a PSA letter? Or more comfortable buying it authenticated from a guy who certified it in his basement? I would take the PSA everytime. But on the flipside, I may ask the guy is his basement for his opinion as well so I could have both opinions.

[barrysloate]

But I would expect a whole lot more than a considered opinion from someone who makes his living solely by making these opinions. If your doctor said it was his considered opinion you needed heart surgery, but wasn't absolutely sure, would that work for most people?

If a TPA is authenticating a 1927 Yankee ball, I want him to be 99.99% sure he is right, and I want him to stand by that opinion. Otherwise, his services are pretty much worthless.

[David W]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

But I would expect a whole lot more than a considered opinion from someone who makes his living solely by making these opinions. If your doctor said it was his considered opinion you needed heart surgery, but wasn't absolutely sure, would that work for most people?

If a TPA is authenticating a 1927 Yankee ball, I want him to be 99.99% sure he is right, and I want him to stand by that opinion. Otherwise, his services are pretty much worthless.

I guess my point is this. Anyone can probably find a "Forensic Examiner" or whaterve the term is to "authenticate" or "unauthenticate" the same autograph.

So one stands by his opinion, while another says his opinion is wrong. There is really no way to prove 100% who is right. So short of legal action, I don't know how you can force someone to refund an autographed item.

And that is why I don't mess with autographs, unless I got them myself, or from someone I trust

[HRBAKER]

I would feel less comfortable buying an item with a PSA/DNA or JSA cert than from any of the gentlemen that Richard mentioned. What you are really referring to Casey is that the TPA COA makes the item more liquid in today's hobby that's all.

And again these authenticators have a sliding scale for their expertise based on the value of the item - that implies no expertise? They have the best of both worlds IMO, reap the benefits from implied expertise w/o any responsibility.

I agree with Barry, if I were making a living in this hobby and did not possess the personal expertise to operate w/o TPAs as the ones mentioned before I wouldn't touch an autograph.

[Caseyatbat]

Jeff, yes that is what I was saying. It makes the items more liquid especially in the eyes of a dealer. But also I still believe third party authentication is a necessity. I believe what Richard said earlier was true about who he felt were reliable dealers. But in the end, they are dealers. Buyers wants authentication from a "third party" that does not actually own that particular item and trying to sell it. And they want it from whoever the biggest and best name is. Right now, we all know who those 2 companies are.

The best place to buy higher end autographs are from reliable dealers who specialize in this particular area that provide both their own COA guarantee and still use the top TPA's as well. There is really no reason why even the most knowledgeable dealer in the industry should not use a TPA as well as give their own guarantee. Their investment into the TPA always come back when the item is sold. Most Dealers even get a pretty substantial discount with TPA's which makes it even more worthwhile to use them.

[HRBAKER]

Yes but Casey they are involved in the transaction to some extent even though they do not buy and sell autographs per se. If they charge a sliding scale based on the secondary value of the item then to me they are participating in the market.

[Caseyatbat]

Jeff I can tell you from my personal experience as a dealer, that if one of my autographs is not authenticated by the top 2 companies, the buyers email and ask "Why is this autograph not authenticated by *SA? And then they ask, "Do you guarantee it to pass *SA?" And the conversation usually ends with, "they will only buy the item if it comes with *SA authentication".

So if you are a dealer selling valuable autographs, it is much easier to just go ahead to satisfy the buyer and provide proper TPA. Most of the time the buyers are also willing to pay more for that particular item if it has this type of authentication. And not many people are asking for authentication from the reliable dealer names that were mentioned previously. Just about every buyer is asking for the top 2 companies and thats it. And they are the buyer, so that really forces dealers into using them.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by David W

I guess my point is this. Anyone can probably find a "Forensic Examiner" or whaterve the term is to "authenticate" or "unauthenticate" the same autograph.

So one stands by his opinion, while another says his opinion is wrong. There is really no way to prove 100% who is right. So short of legal action, I don't know how you can force someone to refund an autographed item.

And that is why I don't mess with autographs, unless I got them myself, or from someone I trust

The problem I have is, like you said David, it's the biggest & the best against little old, lowly Mantle collectors like me trying to get a refund. When I tried to discuss this Mickey Mantle autograph on another website (I did not purchase this, but it sold for $100.00 plus) that Todd Mueller sold at his on-line auction site last April.


I KNEW it was an easy to spot Mantle forgery, but he went on for 3 pages about "Providence" and how he knew Mantle & did signings with him, blah blah blah.

It doesn't change the fact that the item is a forgery. No one was going to make him refund that poor sap who bought this mess. So I don't put too much stock into guaranteeing in this business anyway. Can't even get the self proclaimed biggest dealer in America to shoot straight with Mickey Freaking Mantle...So I certainly see your point David.

I do wish Todd luck with his new endeavors. At least the guy is still trying to do something positive for the industry, though I hold out little or no hope that Moralless fakes will be everywhere on his new site that look just like this beauty below.

and yes, these third party guys and FDE's alike should hold up to a standard for their work. The fact that no one ever gets a refund for their lousy service is beyond me?

[Caseyatbat]

Richard,

Yes I completely agree with you. It is the autograph that should be bought, not the cert.

[Caseyatbat]

Dealers use major TPA's because it allows the items to be sold for money. For instance, a Mickey Mantle signed baseball with no TPA typically sells for the 350 dollar range. The same ball with a PSA letter will most likely sell for the 600 dollar range. That is a big difference. This happens because the buyer feels more comfortable buying it because it was authenticated by a nationally recognized TPA.

Yes its true there may be more knowledgeable smaller scale authenticators out there, but they are not major companies that are nationally recognized. If they decided to expand and become major companies like the other TPA's, maybe they can push them out and take over. But until that happens the larger ones are going to be the ones in demand. Not everybody can know about the smaller scale authenticators doing it out of their "basement", even if they are actually better at doing it.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Caseyatbat

Dealers use major TPA's because it allows the items to be sold for money. For instance, a Mickey Mantle signed baseball with no TPA typically sells for the 350 dollar range. The same ball with a PSA letter will most likely sell for the 600 dollar range. That is a big difference. This happens because the buyer feels more comfortable buying it because it was authenticated by a nationally recognized TPA.

Yes its true there may be more knowledgeable smaller scale authenticators out there, but they are not major companies that are nationally recognized. If they decided to expand and become major companies like the other TPA's, maybe they can push them out and take over. But until that happens the larger ones are going to be the ones in demand. Not everybody can know about the smaller scale authenticators doing it out of their "basement", even if they are actually better at doing it.

Casey - I am not sure if you were referring to my prior post but the names I mentioned are mostly nationally recognized autograph dealers, not small time authenticators.

[Caseyatbat]

Yes I was referring to your prior post, sorry for the delayed response.

[alanu]

Dealer. If you bought a brand new vacuum at walmart and it was broken, who would you take it to?

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Caseyatbat

I believe the problem is not how they actually market themselves, rather how consumers are perceiving their opinion. Most people just assume it is genuine because it is authenticated by top tier TPA. If people actually just take 30 seconds to read the letter of authenticity it states very clearly this is only their considered opinion, and it should be treated as such.

I don't actually see the TPA's guaranteeing the authenticity of any particular item. (Yes I know they originally did years ago, but not anymore) It is usually the auction house or dealer doing that in the same sentence. An example would be, "for iron clad assurance, this item has been authenticated by PSA"

In the end, dealers want their higher end items authenticated by nationally recognized, major third party authenticators for marketing purposes. For instance, if you were buying a Ty Cobb single singed ball for 20K, would you feel more comfortable buying with a PSA letter? Or more comfortable buying it authenticated from a guy who certified it in his basement? I would take the PSA everytime. But on the flipside, I may ask the guy is his basement for his opinion as well so I could have both opinions.

If I was buying a $20K item (though I have some very nice items in my collection I am not in that $20K item collector category) I would feel much more comfortable buying it from Jim Stinson, Ron Gordon, Bill Corcoran, Kevin Keating or Rich Albersheim, without a TPA, than buying it online from someone selling it with a TPA.

[Caseyatbat]

Richard,

I agree with you, I would feel pretty confident buying from those dealers as well. But if I go to sell that item I bought with their personal COA, I feel it has a better chance of selling for more money if it carried both a major TPA's letter as well as the personal COA it came with. The more confidence buyers have in the autograph, the more demand it will have. Everybody trusts different people, so I guess the more opinions you have the better it is. Especially if they are all pointing in the same direction