POLL: Who is responsible to reimburse collectors for bad autographs

[Caseyatbat]

Jeff I can tell you from my personal experience as a dealer, that if one of my autographs is not authenticated by the top 2 companies, the buyers email and ask "Why is this autograph not authenticated by *SA? And then they ask, "Do you guarantee it to pass *SA?" And the conversation usually ends with, "they will only buy the item if it comes with *SA authentication".

So if you are a dealer selling valuable autographs, it is much easier to just go ahead to satisfy the buyer and provide proper TPA. Most of the time the buyers are also willing to pay more for that particular item if it has this type of authentication. And not many people are asking for authentication from the reliable dealer names that were mentioned previously. Just about every buyer is asking for the top 2 companies and thats it. And they are the buyer, so that really forces dealers into using them.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Caseyatbat

Jeff I can tell you from my personal experience as a dealer, that if one of my autographs is not authenticated by the top 2 companies, the buyers email and ask "Why is this autograph not authenticated by *SA? And then they ask, "Do you guarantee it to pass *SA?" And the conversation usually ends with, "they will only buy the item if it comes with *SA authentication".

So if you are a dealer selling valuable autographs, it is much easier to just go ahead to satisfy the buyer and provide proper TPA. Most of the time the buyers are also willing to pay more for that particular item if it has this type of authentication. And not many people are asking for authentication from the reliable dealer names that were mentioned previously. Just about every buyer is asking for the top 2 companies and thats it. And they are the buyer, so that really forces dealers into using them.

I have probably been around longer than you Casey because the situation you describe happens to me only once or twice a year and it is usually from a new customer. I tell them I don't need TPA because I feel I know what I am doing.
In my ebay ads I state this:

If you see autographs on ebay with 3rd party authentication then you are paying for that authentication, whether you want it or not. The sellers are forcing you to pay for and accept the opinion of those companies. They will add the cost of authentication to the price of the item.
Established, reputable dealers who know their material don't need to use third party authenticators.

[Caseyatbat]

Richard, again I completely agree with you. Established reputable dealers don't need to use TPA's. But why not use them as well and yes build it into the price? I am only talking about higher end autographs. If buying a Babe Ruth single signed ball, we also have to take account signature removals, enhancements, etc. TPA's use sophisticated machinery for this. These dealers you are speaking of I highly doubt are using this type of machinery to make sure an item is single signed or not somehow professionally enhanced.

So when dealing with higher end autographs, I want both the reliable dealers guarantee such as the ones you are speaking of, and also I want a second opinion from the top TPA available. That is how I offer to sell my items as well. I am confident enough to offer my own guarantee and also offer a top TPA as well just to satisfy whichever customers wants it. All it does is open the window to more potential customers.

[drc]

Duly note I said the dealer is responsible for refund, but never said TPAs get a pass. I specifically added that it can be fair and reasonable for the TPA to owe money for poor, irresponsible work. If you think PSA did an absolutely rancid and entirely insipid job in rendering a wholly ridiculous opinion and should pay the $$, feel free to pursue that avenue. Perhaps the judge will agree with you. Perhaps I will agree with you.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Caseyatbat

Richard, again I completely agree with you. Established reputable dealers don't need to use TPA's. But why not use them as well and yes build it into the price? I am only talking about higher end autographs. If buying a Babe Ruth single signed ball, we also have to take account signature removals, enhancements, etc. TPA's use sophisticated machinery for this. These dealers you are speaking of I highly doubt are using this type of machinery to make sure an item is single signed or not somehow professionally enhanced.

So when dealing with higher end autographs, I want both the reliable dealers guarantee such as the ones you are speaking of, and also I want a second opinion from the top TPA available. That is how I offer to sell my items as well. I am confident enough to offer my own guarantee and also offer a top TPA as well just to satisfy whichever customers wants it. All it does is open the window to more potential customers.

Signature removals and enhancements are very easy to discern using a black light, which I use in all instances where I am buying or authenticating a baseball.
I am aware of the TPA's having certain equipment available to them, whether they actually use it or not, I don't know.

[drc]

I guess it comes down to that one shouldn't be selling items he can authenticate himself or be able to financially replace if it turns out not to be authentic.

As we all know PSA and JSA make mistakes, so I don't know why anyone here would see one of their letters as absolute guarantee of anything in a sale.

[Caseyatbat]

Richard, I respect your opinion and know you have been around in the hobby for a long time. But just because you have been doing it longer than me, does not mean that my own experiences are not valid. I am stating a fact when I say that using a TPA allows me to sell to a wider range of buyers. There are many buyers out there that have deep pockets and love buying this type of stuff, many of them will not buy the higher end items without proper TPA.

Nobody can argue with the fact that TPA's allow dealers to sell to a wider range of people. What about the buyers that are not that knowledgeable in the hobby but still have lots of money to spend on expensive items. Good chances they have never heard of the reputable dealers you mentioned earlier. But there are good chances they have heard of the top TPA's. So it is not rocket science to know which one they are going to ask for.

It is the same story in the Diamond business. When you buy a diamond from a dealer, it always comes with professional third party authentication from reputable companies. You don't just take the dealers word for it no matter how reputable he is. You want authentication from a gemologist, not a diamond dealer. Why would it be any different for this business? Buyers want authentication from an actual authenticator, not the dealer selling it.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Caseyatbat

Richard, I respect your opinion and know you have been around in the hobby for a long time. But just because you have been doing it longer than me, does not mean that my own experiences are not valid. I am stating a fact when I say that using a TPA allows me to sell to a wider range of buyers. There are many buyers out there that have deep pockets and love buying this type of stuff, many of them will not buy the higher end items without proper TPA.

Nobody can argue with the fact that TPA's allow dealers to sell to a wider range of people. What about the buyers that are not that knowledgeable in the hobby but still have lots of money to spend on expensive items. Good chances they have never heard of the reputable dealers you mentioned earlier. But there are good chances they have heard of the top TPA's. So it is not rocket science to know which one they are going to ask for.

It is the same story in the Diamond business. When you buy a diamond from a dealer, it always comes with professional third party authentication from reputable companies. You don't just take the dealers word for it no matter how reputable he is. You want authentication from a gemologist, not a diamond dealer. Why would it be any different for this business? Buyers want authentication from an actual authenticator, not the dealer selling it.

Casey,
I never meant to denigrate your experience, I wanted to show how it was different than mine.
How long has reputable diamond authentication been in the diamond business?
Has it led to non reputable authentication?
TPA in the autograph business has been around for about 10 years. The autograph business existed pretty well, obviously there were some problems, for about 100 years before TPA.
What I primarily object to is the buy the cert mentality over buy the autograph. The TPA do not bat 100%, they try to make it appear that they do, but we all know they do not.
The stories are going to continue to come out about things they have done and still do. These stories will change more collectors perceptions of the TPA companies.
This has been a good discourse and I am glad I started this thread.

[Caseyatbat]

Yes I like the thread as well! There is no question it is a hot topic that is not going to go away anytime soon. Believe me, it kills me to shovel thousands of dollars to TPA's every year. Especially when I am 100% confident that every item I am giving to them is authentic or I would not have bought it to begin with. But on the other hand, I also want to maximize the potential value of each item. And in my experiences, I have been able to do so much easier when I use a TPA as well as give my own personal Guarantee and COA. And the investment into TPA does come back to the dealer when the item is sold. So I really just don't see why a dealer wouldn't use one, the buyer is paying for it anyways. It attracts more buyers than without. And dealers like buyers...The more the better.

Also you mentioned this industry has survived for a long time without TPA's up until recently. I think that makes sense. Autograph forgeries were not that common until the early 90's. Of course there were some before, but since the 90's it has been a large-scale problem that only seems to be getting worse. And the forgeries never really go away either, we still have all of the original forgeries floating around the market as well as all of the newer forgeries as well being pumped out every day. They just keep piling up in the market. So I believe now more than ever TPA's are needed. And yes they are wrong from time to time, but in my experiences they are correct 99% of the time. Which are pretty good odds considering they are human.

[HRBAKER]

Casey,
I am enjoying this discussion as well. One conclusion that I have drawn and that I think is readily apparent is that the marketing efforts of these companies have been extremely successful. I have a question for you. If all these companies are doing is offering a non-interested third party "opinion" about whether a signature is genuine, why is their opinion more expensive the more valuable the autograph is? Or am I wrong about that? Thanks.

If all they are offering is an opinion then it seems that they are not incurring any risk associated with a guarantee.

[travrosty]

Believe me, it kills me to shovel thousands of dollars to TPA's every year. Especially when I am 100% confident that every item I am giving to them is authentic or I would not have bought it to begin with. But on the other hand, I also want to maximize the potential value of each item. And in my experiences, I have been able to do so much easier when I use a TPA as well as give my own personal Guarantee and COA. And the investment into TPA does come back to the dealer when the item is sold. So I really just don't see why a dealer wouldn't use one, the buyer is paying for it anyways. It attracts more buyers than without. And dealers like buyers...The more the better.



This is the biggest fallacy out there, it is simply not true. If it kills you to shovel thousands to TPA's, then don't do it. I don't do it, I sell just fine. So do lots of my friends. You will just get more serious bidders who look for quality items and know what they want and know a good autograph when they see one, rather than some guys who just buy the cert. The autographs still sell and for basically the same amount of money.

I have sold autographs that normally go for 420 dollars with tpa cert, for 400 without one, and the cert would have cost 75 dollars, so if I would have got the cert, I lose 55 dollars, but I can make it up in volume I guess.

[Caseyatbat]

Jeff, To answer your question, I don't believe they charge more for the value of an autograph. It is a pretty flat rate. An example would be 150 dollars for any team signed baseball with 18 or more signatures. But if the ball has big names such as Ruth, Gehrig etc. I believe they charge 250 dollars for the team ball. So more in that aspect I guess.

One of the problems with the price is I think it is too much of a flat rate. For instance a Mantle autograph is 100 dollars with PSA. That may be acceptable because the ball is going to sell for 500 dollars. But they also charge 100 dollars for a Mantle signed 8x10 photo which is horrible, authentic ones are selling for only 150 dollars on ebay even with the TPA full letter. So how is it possible they can charge 100 dollars to authenticate an item that is only selling for 150 dollars? In that aspect I wish it did actually fluctuate with the value of the item because maybe in this case to authenticate a Mantle 8x10 would only be about 25 dollars.

[thenavarro]

Originally Posted by Caseyatbat

it kills me to shovel thousands of dollars to TPA's every year.

Casey,

I'm sure you probably already know this with the volume that you indicate that you do, but if you are giving PSA/DNA that much business, you shouldn't be paying full price. You might be getting discounts already, I have no way of knowing, but if not, just ask for them and it will save you some coin.

JSA will discount as well (not as aggressive as PSA/DNA though from my experience)

Take care,

Mike

[drc]

Okay. I stopped by my parents and my 76 year old dad was doing a jigsaw puzzle. He's never collected or sold. I asked him the big question of if a dealer sold an autograph that was given an LOA from some 'big authentication company,' and the autograph turned out to be a a forgery, who pays the refund? He said the dealer should pay, but he should in turn get some money from the authentication company.

[Caseyatbat]

Hello Mike, Thank You very much for the advice. I do have the discount already. Although I wish it was more. But your right, PSA is a little more aggressive in this sense. I was surprised to see it wasn't the other way around! Thanks Mike.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Caseyatbat

It is the same story in the Diamond business. When you buy a diamond from a dealer, it always comes with professional third party authentication from reputable companies. You don't just take the dealers word for it no matter how reputable he is. You want authentication from a gemologist, not a diamond dealer. Why would it be any different for this business? Buyers want authentication from an actual authenticator, not the dealer selling it.

While this analogy seems sound on first glance, there is one sight difference between diamonds and autographs (I think) :

With a diamond, (I assume) there is a scientific way to determine if it is real, or fake. If my assumption is correct, the authenticator is dealing in facts.

With an autograph, we are dealing with opinions of authenticity, not facts. We can determine if the items involved in the autograph (paper, ink, pen style, angle of writing, pressures, etc) fit the usual known attributes, but we can not determine with absolute certainty whether (as an example) Walter Johnson signed his name to an item, and that he didn't have Joe Jackson sign for him.

Or am I missing something?
Doug

[drc]

A problem with this theory is the best dealers are sometimes more knowledgeable than the best authenticators. In a perhaps extreme example, the learned collector would value the seller Richard Simon's opinion over GAI's.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by drc

A problem with this theory is the best dealers are sometimes more knowledgeable than the best authenticators. In a perhaps extreme example, the learned collector would value the seller Richard Simon's opinion over GAI's.

I would certainly hope they would .

[Caseyatbat]

Richard, your argument I only agree with when "buying" an item. Of course you don't need TPA's to buy an item if you know what you are doing. 99% of the items I buy are without TPA's or any type of certification whatsoever. I typically buy them with no guarantee, no COA, and also no clue who I am dealing with. I buy the autograph sole on the autograph itself. I usually don't even both listening to their provenance unless it sounds like an interesting story.

My argument is from a dealers point of view. When dealing with items that are worth over 1,000 dollars, I believe it is in the dealers best interest to use a major TPA. I want to prove to my buyers that there is nothing to hide. Not to mention that every major auction house (outside a few like lelands) makes it mandatory to have it. And to sell them on ebay it is highly recommended as well. If you take selling vintage autographs serious on ebay, you should use a top TPA. It is not mandatory like the major auction houses, but if one of your items is questioned, they flag your account if you don't have TPA. And if you get flagged 3 times, they suspend or cancel your account. Why would a dealer want to deal with that and take that risk? When they can just use the proper TPA and everybody is happy. Ebay is happy, the buyers are happy, and the dealer is happy that everybody is satisfied with their product.

And lastly, Most of these transactions are done through paypal. If people buy autographed items "without" TPA, many times they send them away to be authenticated after buying. If they come back as "no good" from the TPA, paypal allows them to return the item anyways within 45 days. So if the dealer has the proper TPA already, that is one less thing to worry about.

None of this is the fault of the TPA's. Rather, the auction houses, ebay & paypal have decided to use them as their leading authority. If people don't like that, they should really take it up with the auction houses, ebay & paypal.