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Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Postwar Sportscard Forums > Postwar Baseball Cards Forum (Pre-1980)

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  #1  
Old 03-28-2023, 04:53 PM
Zach Wheat Zach Wheat is offline
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Default 1952 Topps Images of All Variations <Rolling Thread>

I thought it might be fun to have a thread on 1952 Topps Variations keep a list of all the known variations in once place. 1952 Topps has often been compared to a post-war equivalent of the Monster - the T206 with a total of 407 cards - but many more variations are known and now are close to 650. "Old Timers" that collected this set considered a card to be a true variation if they could find 10 cards with the same variation - and their list of the complete set had over 700 cards! Completing a set with all variations - red & black back, mid-series gray backs, high # double printed left & right arrow cards, yellow House variations, Campos red star/black star variations as well as the various print variations makes it quite a challenge to complete - and a significant challenge to even the experienced collector.

I thought it would be helpful to keep a running list of all of the cards/variations in the set. In the Higgins & Scott auction, they listed a total of 579 cards which they noted was the most complete set at the time. The link to the auction is here (thanks Al-R):

http://aug13.hugginsandscott.com/cgi...l?itemid=59354

PDF of variations in auction (thanks Irv):
http://aug13.hugginsandscott.com/pdf/1952_topps.pdf

However, the "complete" set with all variations comprises many more cards. Here is the original N54 thread with some of the variations:

https://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=294679

One PSA registry collector has a good list of most variations here:

https://www.psacard.com/psasetregist...gegallery/5747

1952 Topps The 22 Red Strip Cards Article (Thanks Patrick):
https://oldbaseball.com/m/refs/1952_...ed_Stripes.pdf

N54 1952 Topps Campanella thread:
https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=132556

However, none of these sources are complete. For future reference, and perhaps to get the grading companies to recognize some of the variations I thought it would be helpful to the newer collectors to keep a repository of all known variations. Variations = print variations, paper variations, color toning variations from using different ink and state errors, wrong back errors, printing errors, etc.

So let's get rolling and add images on a rolling list of all the unique variations.

Rolling List of 1952 Topps Variations - Card & Variations Count ***649 Cards in Master Set*** - Updated 11/22/23
Set Card Count - 407 cards
PSA Master Set - 491 Cards
PSA Super Set - 551 Cards
Huggins & Scott Master Set - 579 Cards
Current Master Set Count - 649 Cards
#1-80 Red Back
#1-80 Black Back
#42 Kretlow - Post #23 Red Back, Orange background
#42 Kretlow - Post #23 Black Back, yellow background
#42 Kretlow - Post #23 Red Back, peach background
#43 Scarborough - (No Pic) Red Back, Light Peach background
#43 Scarborough - (No Pic) Black Back, Light Peach/Yellow background
#43 Scarborough - (No Pic) Black Back, Peach background
#55 Boone - Post #23 Red Back, light olive background
#55 Boone - Post #23 Red Back, dark olive background
#55 Boone - Post #23 Black Back, light olive background
#55 Boone - Post #23 Black Back, dark olive background
#57 Lopat, Ed - Post #5 Red Back; Red Blob, below right eye
#77 Kennedy, No (or partial) Bottom Border, Red Back
#131-190 Tan Back
#131-190 Gray Back
#146 House, Tan Back
#146 House, Gray Back
#146 House, Tan Back Yellow Tiger
#146 House, Tan Back Yellow Tiger, Green Neck
#146 House, Gray Back Yellow Tiger
#162 Crandall, print mark (circular area, missing red ink)
#191 Berra - Red Stripe (right side)
#196 Hemus - red stripe right shoulder (left side of card)
#200 Houk Post #29 light pink background, normal tint
#200 Houk Post #29, dark pink background, red facial tint
#200 Houk - Red Stripe (right side) Post #66-68
#201 Berra - Red Stripe (right side) Post #66-68
#205 King- Red Stripe top right border Post #66-68
#206 Ostrowski - Red Stripe left side Post #66-68
#210 Fowler - Red Stripe (right side) Post #66-68
#211 Coleman - Red Stripe (right side) Post #66-68
#215 Bauer - Red Stripe (Top Right Corner) Post #66-68
#216 Ashburn - Red Stripe right shoulder
#220 Presko - Red Stripe (right side) Post #66-68
#221 Hamner - Red Stripe (right side) Post #66-68
#225 Baumholtz (Horizontal card) Red Stripe on bottom border Post #66-68
#226 Philley - Red Stripe, right shoulder Post #66-68
#230 Batts - Red Stripe (left third) Post #66-68
#231 Zoldak - Red Stripe (right side) Post #66-68
#235 Dropo - Red Stripe (bottom) Post #66-68
#236 Fitzgerald - Red Stripe, right shoulder Post #66-68
#240 Phillips - Red Stripe (left third) Post #66-68
#241 Byrne - Red Stripe (right side) Post #66-68
#245 Robertson - Red Stripe (right side) Post #66-68
#246 Kell - Red Stripe (right side) Post #66-68
#250 Erskine - Red Stripe (left third) Post #66-68
#295 Cavarretta, Post #52 red print mark near right edge
#306 Sleator Post #37, green oblong slash on right arm
#307 Campos Post #31, 34, 43 regular card
#307 Campos Post #31, red-star, black-star on reverse
#307 Campos Post #31, red-star, partial black-star on reverse
#307 Campos Post #31, 34, 43 partial top border break
#307 Campos Post #31, 34, 43 top border break corrected
#307 Campos Post #31, partial red-star, black-star (no pic)
#314 Campanella Post #49, Missing R in "Major" (and part of line above) on reverse of card in "Major League Batting Record"
#327 Wilson Post #5 - Green Blob, left eyebrow
#358 Kucab Post #14, (unverified, no pic) fingerprint on image
#358 Kucab Post #45, Scratched printing plate, bottom front

I will update the list from information provided below when time permits.

Last edited by Zach Wheat; 11-22-2023 at 06:08 PM. Reason: Edit list
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  #2  
Old 03-28-2023, 08:56 PM
ALR-bishop ALR-bishop is offline
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What are the ground rules ?
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Old 03-29-2023, 05:51 AM
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There are already a lot of them posted in this thread:

https://net54baseball.com/showthread...+topps+gallery
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Old 03-29-2023, 06:41 AM
Zach Wheat Zach Wheat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALR-bishop View Post
What are the ground rules ?
Good Question. The intent was to have this thread be a reference for the less common variations. Some are posted in the other N54 thread mentioned above. Master set collectors - in general - recognize the "master set" as consisting of the original 407 cards + 80 red back/black back 1st series cards + 60 mid-series gray backs + 3 left/right arrow high # double prints = 550 recognized card variations as part of the "master set". Post any of these "rare" variations if you have them. It is always nice to see the left & right arrow double prints.

As previously noted, Huggins & Scott counted 579 cards as part of the most complete master set (so 29 more variations). I believe there are others. By my count, there are close to 600+/- cards and variations in the master set.

It would be great to have a running thread that emphasizes these 50 +/- remaining variations as well as any new variations found.

Last edited by Zach Wheat; 03-29-2023 at 06:43 AM. Reason: typos
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Old 03-29-2023, 08:55 AM
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Here are couple of new ones I pointed out to Al in the 52 thread but I'm unsure if these went anywhere?
Green splotch over Archie Wilson's left eyebrow (High Number Card #327) and a red splotch under Ed Lopat's right eye. (Card #57) I did a search and some have these marks and others don't but I don't know if those signify a variation or not? (Ed Lopat is a red back card. I have not seen this on black back cards))
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Archie Wilson RC #327 52 Topps High Number.jpg (108.4 KB, 416 views)
File Type: jpg Ed Lopat.jpg (74.6 KB, 413 views)

Last edited by irv; 03-29-2023 at 10:44 AM.
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Old 03-29-2023, 09:02 AM
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A few of my variations.
My Frank House Yellow Tiger card (Card #147) does not have Frank with the greenish neck which seems to be the norm with these Yellow Tiger cards.
I believe, according to some on here, this is the more tougher one of the 2 Yellow Tiger cards?

Last edited by irv; 03-29-2023 at 10:56 AM.
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Old 03-29-2023, 09:48 AM
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Zac---had not seen the PSA link. It has a couple I had not seen. I have never added the ones in the 52 Gallery thread you posted that are not in the H&S list of 579 ( like a couple Dale posted), so do not have a list of 600 plus. I assume if you do it is "proprietary" for now ? Seems to me if we are going to catalog what is out there it would be best to go 1-407 and let people identify anything they have for each number.

For example for #1 Pafko would be two ? ( red and black).
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Old 03-29-2023, 09:59 AM
Zach Wheat Zach Wheat is offline
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Irv,

I was not aware of the Wilson or Lopat variations. The House yellow Tiger variation comes in both a normal tan back and gray back. The House yellow Tiger version appears to have a green neck version, similar to the one you posted but more pronounced. Your thoughts on rarity of this version are consistent with my understanding, although I am certainly not an expert.
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Old 03-29-2023, 10:06 AM
Zach Wheat Zach Wheat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALR-bishop View Post
Zac---had not seen the PSA link. It has a couple I had not seen. I have never added the ones in the 52 Gallery thread you posted that are not in the H&S list of 579 ( like a couple Dale posted), so do not have a list of 600 plus. I assume if you do it is "proprietary" for now ? Seems to me if we are going to catalog what is out there it would be best to go 1-407 and let people identify anything they have for each number.

For example for #1 Pafko would be two ? ( red and black).
I have always shared my knowledge and do not consider the list proprietary. However, that being said I needed to get permission from sources that told me and I do not have everyone's ok yet. I do not anticipate this to be an issue in the end.

Your idea of posting 1-407 is maybe the best way to inventory the variations. Maybe at the top of each new variations post we include the card # and back variation (ie red, black, tan or gray back) and go from there.

Irv, could you edit your post to add this?
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Old 03-29-2023, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zach Wheat View Post
Irv,

I was not aware of the Wilson or Lopat variations. The House yellow Tiger variation comes in both a normal tan back and gray back. The House yellow Tiger version appears to have a green neck version, similar to the one you posted but more pronounced. Your thoughts on rarity of this version are consistent with my understanding, although I am certainly not an expert.
With Wilson and Lopat, I just came across those cards from my own collection. I believe it was in the variation thread and the talk at the time that I decided to see if I could find any anomalies/variations with mine and just happened upon those 2.

Here are some pics of the more "greenish neck" (I said yellow by mistake) on the majority of the Frank House Yellow Tiger cards.
I do not believe my card has this "tint" or "Hue" but maybe my eyes are lying?
(I edited my photos above)
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Frank House greenish neck 2.jpg (149.1 KB, 407 views)
File Type: jpg Frank House greenish neck.jpg (122.1 KB, 407 views)

Last edited by irv; 03-29-2023 at 10:55 AM.
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Old 03-29-2023, 01:22 PM
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Missed color passes to me are not a true variation but to each his or her own.
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Old 03-29-2023, 01:23 PM
Zach Wheat Zach Wheat is offline
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Irv,

Nice green neck variation. There seem to be "a lot" of variations with certain cards. One is the 1952 Topps House and the other is the 52 Topps Campos.

Last edited by Zach Wheat; 03-30-2023 at 08:49 AM.
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Old 03-29-2023, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zach Wheat View Post
Irv,

I was not aware of the Wilson or Lopat variations. The House yellow Tiger variation comes in both a normal tan back and gray back. The House yellow Tiger version appears to have a green neck version, similar to the one you posted but more pronounced. Your thoughts on rarity of this version are consistent with my understanding, although I am certainly not an expert.
To keep it simple, there are 3 house variations of the yellow tiger

One has varying degree of red loss/green throat most commonly found since shills will sell anything missing a little red as a yellow tiger and psa will label as such easier to track. Topps created this error by hand.

One has normal red on throat but yellow tiger. Rare this is the error/variation on the sheet


One is a gray back with yellow tiger. Extremely rare. First few sheets printed as gray backs with either house NO RED in logo, or RED in logo. No green throat anomaly found in the gray back series. Nobody knows how many gray backs exist, but if house was printed 3x, likely 1 has yellow (no red), other 2 are red
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Last edited by Republicaninmass; 03-29-2023 at 01:33 PM.
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Old 03-29-2023, 01:33 PM
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I believe a Kucab variation has a fingerprint mark somewhere but dont have time to look
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Last edited by Republicaninmass; 03-29-2023 at 01:34 PM.
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Old 03-29-2023, 01:38 PM
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To keep it simple, there are 3 house variations of the yellow tiger

One has varying degree of red loss/green throat most commonly found since shills will sell anything missing a little red as a yellow tiger and psa will label as such easier to track. Topps created this error by hand.

One has normal red on throat but yellow tiger. Rare this is the error/variation on the sheet


One is a gray back with yellow tiger. Extremely rare. First few sheets printed as gray backs with either house NO RED in logo, or RED in logo. No green throat anomaly found in the gray back series. Nobody knows how many gray backs exist, but if house was printed 3x, likely 1 has yellow (no red), other 2 are red
Get what you're saying now.

Last edited by irv; 03-29-2023 at 02:38 PM.
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Old 03-30-2023, 05:35 AM
Zach Wheat Zach Wheat is offline
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I believe a Kucab variation has a fingerprint mark somewhere but dont have time to look
Thanks Ted. You probably know more about this set than anyone
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Old 03-30-2023, 07:55 AM
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Irv,

Nice green neck variation. There seem to be "a lot" of variations with certain cards. One is the 1952 Topps House and the other is the 52 Topps Campos. There are numerous variations with Campos as well.
From what I've seen, which Ted also touched on, the more red there is on the tiger's tongue, the more greater the chance is of the greenish hue on House's neck.

Speaking of Campos, that is one of the variation cards I don't currently own but wish I did. The black star on the reverse and/or the missing border on the front.
I also don't own, but wish I did again, is the Joe Page/Sain bio error card.
Most of these, including the Frank House yellow tiger, have really increased in value over the last few years so I'm not sure if I ever will?
I also don't own any gray backs but because there are so many, with some real tough, almost impossible ones to obtain, I don't even bother thinking about them.

Last edited by irv; 03-30-2023 at 02:59 PM.
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Old 03-30-2023, 09:01 AM
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In addition to the Campos black star and front border missing version I also have what looks like a partial black star. I think I posted it in the 52 Gallery thread.

I will count up how many variants I have of the 407. Since I only have a dozen or so grey backs and am not pursuing them I know I will be well short of any 600 figure


I still think going through it card by card and identifying any variants for each would be best to get a count. For instance in cards 1-80, beyond 2 each of red and black, how may other variants are known and in which color back?

Last edited by ALR-bishop; 03-30-2023 at 09:05 AM.
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Old 03-30-2023, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
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Missed color passes to me are not a true variation but to each his or her own.


Are you referring to the house card?

House is not missing a color pass. Upon magnification there is red around the yellow tiger on one card, the red pixels have been deliberately removed in an area on the green throat card.
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Old 03-30-2023, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Zach Wheat View Post
Thanks Ted. You probably know more about this set than anyone


Aw shucks thank you! Information has been borrowed, but pretty sure I was one of the first to look woth the magnifying glass and pick out the red was stoned off the mask deliberately. Also, the gray back, having either pale yellow or with no variant sums up a few important notes: (for me at least)

1. Grays for some reason were printed first,

2. Somewhere along the line the printer saw the tiger logo and began removing the red mask on others to make them all match. Shortly after they were both matched. Not sure if a new doe had to be made or what have you.

Steveb knows more about printing, but my guess it was cheaper/faster to stone off the red off slowly on the 2 other printed on the sheet, rather than remask/change template and print the red on the yellow tiger.
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Old 03-30-2023, 12:35 PM
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....pretty sure I was one of the first to look woth the magnifying glass and pick out the red was stoned off the mask deliberately. Also, the gray back, having either pale yellow or with no variant sums up a few important notes: (for me at least)

1. Grays for some reason were printed first,

2. Somewhere along the line the printer saw the tiger logo and began removing the red mask on others to make them all match. Shortly after they were both matched. Not sure if a new doe had to be made or what have you.

Steveb knows more about printing, but my guess it was cheaper/faster to stone off the red off slowly on the 2 other printed on the sheet, rather than remask/change template and print the red on the yellow tiger.
Interesting....what led you to conclude the gray backs (Mid-series - #131-190) were printed first? Also, did "...removing the mask" slowly occur with other cards?

There are other cards that seem to have different gradations of color in their variations. Common examples not posted yet include say the Kretlow (#42) which has a yellow and peach background on the black back variation. Same with Scarborough (#43) on both black and red back variations.
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Old 03-30-2023, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Republicaninmass View Post
Are you referring to the house card?

House is not missing a color pass. Upon magnification there is red around the yellow tiger on one card, the red pixels have been deliberately removed in an area on the green throat card.
Just a general observation, kind of in the same category as print flecks and the like. If a mask was removed or added, that would create a variation.

Last edited by toppcat; 03-30-2023 at 02:05 PM.
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Old 03-30-2023, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zach Wheat View Post
Interesting....what led you to conclude the gray backs (Mid-series - #131-190) were printed first? Also, did "...removing the mask" slowly occur with other cards?

There are other cards that seem to have different gradations of color in their variations. Common examples not posted yet include say the Kretlow (#42) which has a yellow and peach background on the black back variation. Same with Scarborough (#43) on both black and red back variations.
Zach, you need to re-edit your first post. The Wilson is card #327.
Also, as noted in the H&S link Al once provided, Kretlow has 3 total variations. Yellow, Peach and also Orange, but the orange is on the red back cards.
Also, Ray Boone has 3 different front colors. A darker brownish if you will compared to the red back version but also a lime green front on the other black back.
I'm trying hard to find that fingerprint variation that Ted mentioned but I'm having a difficult time. I believe, IIRC, that was mentioned/shown in the 52 Topps thread? I thought it was Kuzuva, personally, but Ted would definitely know better than me.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Lou Kretlow black back yellow front variation.jpg (121.8 KB, 367 views)
File Type: jpg Lou Kretlow black back peach front 52 Topps.jpg (90.6 KB, 367 views)
File Type: jpg Lou Kretlow red back orange front 52 Topps .jpg (109.4 KB, 374 views)
File Type: jpg Ray Boone 52 Topps.jpg (115.8 KB, 364 views)
File Type: jpg Ray Boone BB Lime front.jpg (78.6 KB, 365 views)
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Old 03-30-2023, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zach Wheat View Post
Interesting....what led you to conclude the gray backs (Mid-series - #131-190) were printed first? Also, did "...removing the mask" slowly occur with other cards?
The yellow tiger with no green throat was deliberate. No way they changed that after the presses started. Gray back yellow is likley the first few print runs.

I'm not sure if it occurred with any others, though the "fixed " Frank campos partial border looked like it may have had some work done. How can one tell the fixed copy? I'll let that for a little while


[QUOTE]

There are other cards that seem to have different gradations of color in their variations. Common examples not posted yet include say the Kretlow (#42) which has a yellow and peach background on the black back variation. Same with Scarborough (#43) on both black and red back ]

Yes I'm familiar, but I think it was likley different inks
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Old 03-30-2023, 03:13 PM
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Just a general observation, kind of in the same category as print flecks and the like. If a mask was removed or added, that would create a variation.

Ah ok! Since the house is definately not a missing ink pass!
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Old 03-30-2023, 04:14 PM
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Zach, you need to re-edit your first post. The Wilson is card #327.
Also, as noted in the H&S link Al once provided, Kretlow has 3 total variations. Yellow, Peach and also Orange, but the orange is on the red back cards.
Also, Ray Boone has 3 different front colors. A darker brownish if you will compared to the red back version but also a lime green front on the other black back...
Changed Wilson to #327. Re: Kretlow, I think we are saying the same thing. The variations occur on the black back cards (yellow and peach) and as you noted red is one color. Regarding Boone, on my master list, I have a total of 4 cards - on both red & black back - they each have a light & dark olive background. I will have to add Scarborough with pics

Last edited by Zach Wheat; 03-30-2023 at 04:25 PM.
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Old 03-30-2023, 04:37 PM
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.....I also don't own, but wish I did again, is the Joe Page/Sain bio error card.
Most of these, including the Frank House yellow tiger, have really increased in value over the last few years so I'm not sure if I ever will?
I also don't own any gray backs but because there are so many, with some real tough, almost impossible ones to obtain, I don't even bother thinking about them.
These are the major variations that most set collectors want to include in their set. Regarding, mid-series gray backs (#131-190), some are more rare than others. I hope to collect all 60, but it is unlikely due to the scarcity of some of them.

As Ted has noted in other threads, the Reiser gray back is difficult to find and the House yellow Tiger gray back is even more difficult.
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  #28  
Old 03-30-2023, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zach Wheat View Post
Changed Wilson to #327. Re: Kretlow, I think we are saying the same thing. The variations occur on the black back cards (yellow and peach) and as you noted red is one color. Regarding Boone, on my master list, I have a total of 4 cards - on both red & black back - they each have a light & dark olive background. I will have to add Scarborough with pics
Ok, understood.
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  #29  
Old 03-31-2023, 08:32 AM
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#200 Ralph Houk - dark pink background, red facial tint & #200 Houk with a light pink background, normal tint
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File Type: jpg #200 Houk Sunburn.JPG (83.7 KB, 371 views)
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  #30  
Old 04-01-2023, 07:13 AM
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The H&S link Al had posted in the 52 Topps pic thread.
http://aug13.hugginsandscott.com/cgi...l?itemid=59354
And the link within the link to show the variations that were included with the sold set.
http://aug13.hugginsandscott.com/pdf/1952_topps.pdf
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  #31  
Old 04-01-2023, 12:01 PM
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Thanks Irv.

We will need some help on this card. Following are 3 #307 Campos variations - regular version, a full red-star, black-star version and a partial border break version.

Regarding the partial border break variation, there are several variations regarding the number of white/yellow stars on the front. The red star black star variation comes with differing amounts of red and black ink on the stars. I believe Al-R had a partial red-star, black-star variation at one time. This is believed to be the rarest Campos red-star, black-star variation (est 50 in existence).

I am unclear exactly how many variations there are of this card.
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File Type: jpg #307 Campos Variations268.jpg (193.1 KB, 357 views)
File Type: jpg #307 Campos Variations269.jpg (216.0 KB, 361 views)

Last edited by Zach Wheat; 04-01-2023 at 12:06 PM.
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  #32  
Old 04-01-2023, 12:39 PM
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Anyone know what the "corrected " partial border looks like?


Yes there IS an answer IMO
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Old 04-01-2023, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zach Wheat View Post
Thanks Irv.

We will need some help on this card. Following are 3 #307 Campos variations - regular version, a full red-star, black-star version and a partial border break version.

Regarding the partial border break variation, there are several variations regarding the number of white/yellow stars on the front. The red star black star variation comes with differing amounts of red and black ink on the stars. I believe Al-R had a partial red-star, black-star variation at one time. This is believed to be the rarest Campos red-star, black-star variation (est 50 in existence).

I am unclear exactly how many variations there are of this card.
The only ones I am somewhat familiar with are the "Front Missing Border", the "Black star on the back" and the partial "Black star on the back" cards.
The number of white/yellow stars on the front is a new one to me that I've never, (or at least don't recall), heard of before?
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Old 04-03-2023, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Republicaninmass View Post
Anyone know what the "corrected " partial border looks like?


Yes there IS an answer IMO
Ted,

I have purchased a dozen or so Campos cards over the years since it is obvious there were a number of changes to the border and color separations (or perhaps just printing differences) on this card in particular. Here are 5 other Campos, 1 that is a partial top border, 3 white star variation. Ted, I can't tell any differences in the cropping of the black border on any of the full border cards. This has to be where the variation occurs, right?
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File Type: jpg #307 Campos Variations001.jpg (196.5 KB, 325 views)
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Old 04-03-2023, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zach Wheat View Post
Ted,

I have purchased a dozen or so Campos cards over the years since it is obvious there were a number of changes to the border and color separations (or perhaps just printing differences) on this card in particular. Here are 5 other Campos, 1 that is a partial top border, 3 white star variation. Ted, I can't tell any differences in the cropping of the black border on any of the full border cards. This has to be where the variation occurs, right?
Interesting.
Is it safe to say the Campos cards with the white stars are only on cards with the missing border or can they also be found on other, non missing border cards?
I wasn't aware of this variation and since they are very hard to see, I wonder if I've encountered cards along the way with this variation if in fact they are on other cards without the missing border?
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Old 04-03-2023, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irv View Post
Interesting.
Is it safe to say the Campos cards with the white stars are only on cards with the missing border or can they also be found on other, non missing border cards?
I wasn't aware of this variation and since they are very hard to see, I wonder if I've encountered cards along the way with this variation if in fact they are on other cards without the missing border?
Irv,

They are on the Campos partial top border cards.
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  #37  
Old 04-03-2023, 03:57 PM
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I owe this one to Bob. Recurring but pretty scarce from what I have seen
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  #38  
Old 04-03-2023, 04:41 PM
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Quick run through indicates my current number is 592. I only have a dozen gray backs and have stopped pursuing those so my number is mostly set. The number includes two for cards 311 to 314

Last edited by ALR-bishop; 04-04-2023 at 11:06 AM.
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  #39  
Old 04-04-2023, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALR-bishop View Post
Quick run through indicates my current number is 592. I only have a dozen gray backs and have stopped pursuing those so my number is mostly set. The number includes two for cards 311 to 314
Nice accomplishment Al
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Old 04-04-2023, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zach Wheat View Post
Ted,

I have purchased a dozen or so Campos cards over the years since it is obvious there were a number of changes to the border and color separations (or perhaps just printing differences) on this card in particular. Here are 5 other Campos, 1 that is a partial top border, 3 white star variation. Ted, I can't tell any differences in the cropping of the black border on any of the full border cards. This has to be where the variation occurs, right?

One other posted is the "fixed" or pre error version.
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  #41  
Old 04-05-2023, 11:52 AM
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A few thoughts on the House card that I hope will clarify some stuff.

The general process -
Original art photographed through filters to separate colors and through a screen to make the halftone for each color.

Produces single color negatives (Black and white film, but big. )

Those negatives are put together on an opaque paper or plastic sheet. Most likely paper in 52.

That is the mask, essentially a full sheet sized negative. One for each color.

Flaws in that negative can be fixed in a few ways, specks from dust in the air getting photographed can be painted over with a red colored version of whiteout. (What a fun day that was.... ) Larger mistakes can be covered with a special red cellotape.
Stuff that should print but didn't come out can be drawn in by hand by scratching off some emulsion. It's possible, but sloppy. The place I was I think they'd redo whatever had gone wrong.

Those Masks are used in a special machine to expose the plate which gets developed, checked then sent to the press room to be put on the press and printed.

On the press, a few maybe more copies are run on scrap paper (make ready sheets) to make sure the inking is right, the registration is adjusted properly etc.
Then the actual production sheets are printed.

Stoning off is done to remove something on the plate that is printing but shouldn't.



Something like the House can happen a lot of different ways.
The original art is usually held flat behind glass, if that glass has some stuff on it, hand print or something, a bit of it may not photograph well enough to show up. That's something we would have redone, as it's not really fixable in any practical way.

More likely is stuff on the glass holder for the mask in the plate exposing machine. That has essentially the same result, see the 90 Frank Thomas NNOF and related cards.

That's also not exactly fixable, parts of the red wouldn't print , leaving the neck looking green.
Making that even more probable is that the ones with green show some red in the logo, so whatever was on the glass wasn't solidly opaque like what was probably tape for the NNOF.
For production work with a deadline, that would probably be acceptable. Meaning they knew, and decided to fix it later.

The normal neck missing red may have come first. To me that one looks like they messed up and covered over the log on the red mask.
The negatives they did probably all showed some of the logo, and parts would have been blocked off on different colors. Blocking what shouldn't have been blocked (Or not blocking it off which is almost for sure what caused the black star on Campos) leaves an unprinted area with the rest being normal.
The red could have been stoned off the red plate to "fix" the logo, but I'm not sure why they would.
Plate wear can also affect stuff printing or not, the areas that print are slightly raised above the plate surface. We never did a big enough run for it to be a problem.

The correct version would be from further red plates (Or both earlier and later ones than the mistakes) where the glass in the plate exposer was cleaned so everything came out right.
Someone may or may not have gotten a talking to about it. Depending on if they ran the bad plate until it was time to replace it, or if they replaced it quickly.*

* Dammit Dave! Thats the second time this month your glazed donut frosting has messed up a plate. Don't let it happen again!
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Old 04-05-2023, 12:30 PM
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Steve,

Interesting stuff. So on the yellow House, there clearly appears to be a progression in colors as they adjusted something showing more red ink or less of the green neck. What do you suspect happened to account for this progression and the green blotch on the neck?
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  #43  
Old 04-05-2023, 12:36 PM
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Ted,

think I understand what you are talking about. I am going to have to re-scan the top edges and will re-post again.

Updated: I've added pics in order. The difference appears to be damage to the top border. The partial top border also has the same damage (pic #2), which then appears to be corrected in Pic #3. The red star/black star Campos does not have the same damage to the top border, suggesting perhaps the clean top border was printed first, the top border got damaged in two places sometime while fixing the red star/black star error but then neglected to fix the remainder of the top border. Not sure
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1 Reduced.jpg (108.0 KB, 298 views)
File Type: jpg 2 Reduced.jpg (56.2 KB, 296 views)
File Type: jpg 3 Reduced.jpg (62.7 KB, 296 views)

Last edited by Zach Wheat; 04-05-2023 at 01:05 PM.
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  #44  
Old 04-06-2023, 09:16 AM
steve B steve B is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zach Wheat View Post
Steve,

Interesting stuff. So on the yellow House, there clearly appears to be a progression in colors as they adjusted something showing more red ink or less of the green neck. What do you suspect happened to account for this progression and the green blotch on the neck?
I was only partly joking about glazed donut frosting.

I think the red plate was exposed with some sort of obstruction That blocked most of the area of the logo and up into the neck.
Since it's not completely gone, I suspect something like a handprint on the glass. Some of the chemicals used to develop the plates can do that, and if you're rushing and don't notice a handprint it would not get the proper printed areas exposed. Gum arabic is a pretty good suspect.
OR
Sloppy developing leading to that area not getting developed properly.

I should do some sketches or something to show how the image would be blocked off on the mask. That to me seems like the best explanation for he no red but proper colors on the neck version.
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  #45  
Old 04-06-2023, 12:01 PM
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John Kucab. Card #358 has a variation but is unrecognized as far as I know.
Lower right area has what looks like scratches during the printing process?
This was brought to my attention in the 52 Topps thread.

Also just noticed a Yellow House Tiger that just came up for auction from an major AH.
Looks to be 100% free of any red on the tiger and does not have the greenish hue on the neck of House.
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File Type: jpg John Kucab 358 (2).jpg (184.6 KB, 263 views)

Last edited by irv; 04-06-2023 at 12:02 PM.
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  #46  
Old 04-06-2023, 04:35 PM
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The two Kucabs are both easy to find. Always hate it when differences are found in the high numbers
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  #47  
Old 04-06-2023, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
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The two Kucabs are both easy to find. Always hate it when differences are found in the high numbers
I remembered your post in the 52 Topps thread, (because of this thread) speaking about the missing "R" on the back of the Campanella card and I quickly checked the one John recently sold me but no luck...
That is one I most certainly won't be going after anytime soon.
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  #48  
Old 04-07-2023, 07:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irv View Post
I remembered your post in the 52 Topps thread, (because of this thread) speaking about the missing "R" on the back of the Campanella card and I quickly checked the one John recently sold me but no luck...
That is one I most certainly won't be going after anytime soon.
Thanks Irv. Although it is not supposed to be a rare variation, I have not found a good one yet. I added the original link in the first post.
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  #49  
Old 04-07-2023, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
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Thanks Irv. Although it is not supposed to be a rare variation, I have not found a good one yet. I added the original link in the first post.
Just found 2 for a pic reference on eBay.
PM sent as well, Zach.
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File Type: jpg Campy missing R.jpg (36.2 KB, 253 views)
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  #50  
Old 04-10-2023, 05:54 PM
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Thanks for all the updates in post #1, Zach.
Very interesting.

Thanks for doing this!
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