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  #251  
Old 05-14-2021, 05:55 PM
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I participated in the first clinical trial of the Salk Polio Vaccine. I don't think I ever found out whether I got the real deal or a placebo, but I didn't get polio.

The mRNA vaccines (which are new) have been created and released in warp speed because they have been working on the methodology for nearly 20 years in the lab. The timing of COVID was fortuitous, allowing the vaccines to be introduced quickly. At this point they seem to be some of the most effective vaccines ever made.

The standard "flu shot" is a bit of a crap shoot after they spin to roulette wheel to pick which one to recommend. With mRNA the vaccine is much more specific for the target disease. It's not 100%, but very little in medicine is. I had no hesitation to get Pfizered. My risk is reduced for both getting the disease, getting hospitalized and getting buried.

I wore a mask in the operating room for thirty years. Not sure how effective they were, but they did keep my saliva out the wound. My glasses fell into a belly once though. I believe the mask mania has been excessive. I have played golf daily (almost) for the last year without a mask. The better safe than sorry argument is a bit difficult to defend regarding masks. The anti-vaxxers are on thin ice as well in my opinion.

I suspect that the risk of law suits has something to do with businesses being more than willing to be compliant with government recommendations. I do comply as well when I go to the post office and grocery store though. I did go to an upscale restaurant recently and was called out for removing my mask before I was seated. We were able to eat without masks, even between bites.

If you scare folks consistently they ultimately will accept fear as their modus operandi. Messaging during the COVID era has been remarkably poor, which is most unfortunate. Give me the information without the politics and garbage and let me freely choose how much risk I'm willing to take.

When HIV hit in the eighties, as a surgeon, I felt more endangered personally in the operating room working on HIV patients than I do now regarding COVID.

I have not read this thread, so if this is all redundant, I apologize.
I am a retired board certified general surgeon, not that that matters.
The cards i have listed in BST come from a COVID free home.
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  #252  
Old 05-14-2021, 06:27 PM
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There were serious doubts about the polio vaccine too.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...accine/303946/
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  #253  
Old 05-14-2021, 06:37 PM
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There were serious doubts about the polio vaccine too.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...accine/303946/
If I remember correctly, the problem with the polio vaccine was isolated to one facility where it was produced. One batch of product was tainted with live virus as a result of a manufacturing error. Otherwise I believe the vaccine was quite successful. How many people do you know that have had polio sixty some years later? I know one (1).
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  #254  
Old 05-14-2021, 06:48 PM
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The piece is more about efficacy than safety. Apparently the Salk vaccine was actually not that effective, and it wasn't until the Sabin vaccine subsequent to the article that the disease really was eradicated.
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  #255  
Old 05-14-2021, 06:50 PM
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How many people do you know that have had polio sixty some years later? I know one (1).
Pretty effective! Once for life!

Now, how many are still getting covid after vaccine? You can stop.counting at 2
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  #256  
Old 05-14-2021, 06:56 PM
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The piece is more about efficacy than safety. Apparently the Salk vaccine was actually not that effective, and it wasn't until the Sabin vaccine subsequent to the article that the disease really was eradicated.
You say Sabin and I say Salk
Let's call the whole thing off.

Jeez I was only nine years old.
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  #257  
Old 05-16-2021, 10:48 AM
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Can someone please answer my question about why you’re willing to risk all kinds of side effects for routine prescription medication but you’re not willing to risk them for the vaccine? I would love to know what makes the vaccine different from myriad other medications you’re willing to take that offer remote side effects you may encounter.
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  #258  
Old 05-16-2021, 01:39 PM
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Can someone please answer my question about why you’re willing to risk all kinds of side effects for routine prescription medication but you’re not willing to risk them for the vaccine? I would love to know what makes the vaccine different from myriad other medications you’re willing to take that offer remote side effects you may encounter.
+1

Add to it, all the risks people take with things they smoke, eat, drink, breathe, and so on. Why are possible risks of this vaccine so overblown compared to literally everything else we ingest?
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  #259  
Old 05-16-2021, 01:41 PM
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+1

Add to it, all the risks people take with things they smoke, eat, drink, breathe, and so on. Why are possible risks of this vaccine so overblown compared to literally everything else we ingest?
Because there's no political angle to the others.
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  #260  
Old 05-16-2021, 02:27 PM
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Can someone please answer my question about why you’re willing to risk all kinds of side effects for routine prescription medication but you’re not willing to risk them for the vaccine? I would love to know what makes the vaccine different from myriad other medications you’re willing to take that offer remote side effects you may encounter.
Ok, I'll bite. Because prescription medications require stringent testing and are REQUIRED
to meet FDA approval by FEDERAL LAW before going to market.

The vaccines are not.
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  #261  
Old 05-16-2021, 02:29 PM
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Because there's no political angle to the others.
I answered. No political angle.
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  #262  
Old 05-16-2021, 02:38 PM
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Can someone please answer my question about why you’re willing to risk all kinds of side effects for routine prescription medication but you’re not willing to risk them for the vaccine? I would love to know what makes the vaccine different from myriad other medications you’re willing to take that offer remote side effects you may encounter.
I answered your question, maybe you'll answer mine. Why would someone who's been fully vaccinated and believes their vaccination protects them be concerned with those who are unvaccinated?
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  #263  
Old 05-16-2021, 02:48 PM
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You didn't answer my question. The reasons for not getting the vaccine have been because of potential side effects up to and including death. Why are these risks easily accepted otherwise? Approved drugs come with potentially deadly side effects as well.

To answer your question; why wouldn't I be concerned? The vaccine, like all vaccines, isn't 100 % effective. The only way to know if it wasn't effective for you is if you get sick. If everyone is vaccinated, what is already a low risk gets even lower. I hope that makes sense.
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  #264  
Old 05-16-2021, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark17 View Post
+1

Add to it, all the risks people take with things they smoke, eat, drink, breathe, and so on. Why are possible risks of this vaccine so overblown compared to literally everything else we ingest?

Aren't 3 out of the 4 examples youve given a choice?

Self induced illnesses (including almost all of those pesky co-morbidities) can 99x out of 100 be cured with diet and exercise some are just not willing to change their lifestyle, and must accept the side effects and consequences.


If it will reduce your anxiety about getting covid, that's a reason right there to get the vaccine IMO. They could even give you a placebo and you'd feel great, get outside and back to normal life.


Life expectancy in the US, 78.5 years.
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  #265  
Old 05-16-2021, 03:05 PM
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You didn't answer my question.
No, sir. I did answer it. You just don't want to hear it.


Quote:
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Can someone please answer my question about why you’re willing to risk all kinds of side effects for routine prescription medication but you’re not willing to risk them for the vaccine?
Now, re-read my answer.
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  #266  
Old 05-16-2021, 03:12 PM
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As I already mentioned in this thread, I get the flu vaccine every year. I don't care if others get it or not. I do what I think is best for me. That's why I don't understand why those vaccinated from Covid are so concerned about the unvaccinated.
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  #267  
Old 05-16-2021, 03:44 PM
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As I already mentioned in this thread, I get the flu vaccine every year. I don't care if others get it or not. I do what I think is best for me. That's why I don't understand why those vaccinated from Covid are so concerned about the unvaccinated.
I think Peter hit the nail on the head. It's another way to divide people, instead of something that should be heralded as bringing all people together regardless of our (political) views.

Hell if people want to committ suicide its illegal! WHY???

Just keep them on that hamster wheel as long as physically possible, and even longer sometimes.
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  #268  
Old 05-16-2021, 04:31 PM
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Ok, I'll bite. Because prescription medications require stringent testing and are REQUIRED
to meet FDA approval by FEDERAL LAW before going to market.

The vaccines are not.
LOL have you ever read some of the side effect profiles of APPROVED meds? Or listened to the commercials where it takes a speed talker 30 seconds to read them?
Or, as I've mentioned before, studied some of the APPROVED meds withdrawn from the market because they were killing people? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_withdrawn_drugs

FDA approval indeed.
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  #269  
Old 05-16-2021, 05:20 PM
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LOL have you ever read some of the side effect profiles of APPROVED meds? Or listened to the commercials where it takes a speed talker 30 seconds to read them?
Or, as I've mentioned before, studied some of the APPROVED meds withdrawn from the market because they were killing people? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_withdrawn_drugs

FDA approval indeed.
If a doctor prescribes you medication, he/she should inform you of possible side effects. You can also do your own research. In the end, its YOUR CHOICE whether to take the medication or not.

Here's where I'm losing you, Peter, and I'm not sure why because you're smarter than that. There hasn't been enough testing on the vaccine to know all the possible side effects. I think most people that decline the vaccine aren't antivaxxers, they're just concerned with the lack of testing and not knowing long term side effects. As I've already mentioned (multiple times now), I'll probably get the vaccine in 2-3 years if there are no known side effects. And, if there are side effects, I'll weigh my options and decide if the benefits outweigh the risks.
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  #270  
Old 05-16-2021, 05:29 PM
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If a doctor prescribes you medication, he/she should inform you of possible side effects. You can also do your own research. In the end, its YOUR CHOICE whether to take the medication or not.

Here's where I'm losing you, Peter, and I'm not sure why because you're smarter than that. There hasn't been enough testing on the vaccine to know all the possible side effects. I think most people that decline the vaccine aren't antivaxxers, they're just concerned with the lack of testing and not knowing long term side effects. As I've already mentioned (multiple times now), I'll probably get the vaccine in 2-3 years if there are no known side effects. And, if there are side effects, I'll weigh my options and decide if the benefits outweigh the risks.
How many years of actual clinical post-marketing experience do you insist on before you'll take an FDA approved drug, David? Because guess what? Drugs can be approved on the basis of a single phase III trial, not years of actual experience. The amount of experience we already have, with hundreds of millions of doses administered, probably dwarfs what we know about most drugs.
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  #271  
Old 05-16-2021, 05:36 PM
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How many years of actual clinical post-marketing experience do you insist on before you'll take an FDA approved drug, David? Because guess what? Drugs can be approved on the basis of a single phase III trial, not years of actual experience. The amount of experience we already have, with hundreds of millions of doses administered, probably dwarfs what we know about most drugs.
Now you're just wanting to argue. A quick Google search shows, "In the United States, it takes an average of 12 years for an experimental drug to travel from the laboratory to your medicine cabinet."

12 years, Peter. 12 years.
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  #272  
Old 05-16-2021, 05:37 PM
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Now you're just wanting to argue. A quick Google search shows, "In the United States, it takes an average of 12 years for an experimental drug to travel from the laboratory to your medicine cabinet."

12 years, Peter. 12 years.
Yes but most of that time is not the placebo-controlled phase III trial, it's research and development and feasibility studies and animal studies and so forth, none of which gather the data you crave.

Go tell me how much safety data there was on fen-phen when they approved it. Only to find out it killed people.
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  #273  
Old 05-16-2021, 05:52 PM
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I answered your question, maybe you'll answer mine. Why would someone who's been fully vaccinated and believes their vaccination protects them be concerned with those who are unvaccinated?
Maybe they care about their fellow human beings?? Is this a trick question or am I missing something?
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  #274  
Old 05-16-2021, 05:53 PM
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Go tell me how much safety data there was on fen-phen when they approved it. Only to find out it killed people.
Thank you for helping me prove my point. A lot of the side effects of drugs aren't discovered until years later. Now do you see my desire to wait on the vaccine?
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Old 05-16-2021, 05:56 PM
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Maybe they care about their fellow human beings?? Is this a trick question or am I missing something?
Ah, ok. So they care so much about their fellow human beings, they make sure they're up to date on all their vaccinations?
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Old 05-16-2021, 05:58 PM
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Now you're just wanting to argue. A quick Google search shows, "In the United States, it takes an average of 12 years for an experimental drug to travel from the laboratory to your medicine cabinet."

12 years, Peter. 12 years.
I understand your point here, but I think that number is misleading a bit. Everything I've read has said that the vaccine's basic formula isn't new, it was able to be modified to fit the cause. Kind of like putting a dune buggy body on a VW, much quicker than building a car from scratch.
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  #277  
Old 05-16-2021, 06:08 PM
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Thank you for helping me prove my point. A lot of the side effects of drugs aren't discovered until years later. Now do you see my desire to wait on the vaccine?
You're all over the map. You've said you want to wait for FDA approval. My point is that FDA approval doesn't guarantee anything or mean that much. So now how long do you want to wait?
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  #278  
Old 05-16-2021, 06:38 PM
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You're all over the map. You've said you want to wait for FDA approval. My point is that FDA approval doesn't guarantee anything or mean that much. So now how long do you want to wait?
I'm not all over the place. My position hasn't changed. And to answer your question, please refer to posts 190, 229 and 269. Keep up, Peter. Keep up.
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  #279  
Old 05-16-2021, 06:52 PM
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And again, where is all the concrete proof these vaccines are actually doing anything in protecting anyone from contracting covid?

I know one thing for certain, they have caused blood clots, balls palsy, anaphylaxis, thrombosis, severe respiratory problems, severe aches and pains, hospitalization and of course numerous deaths.

Why is it still being administered and not removed/banned?

Look at the other drugs that have been taken off the market for far less worse issues???

Also, if anyone was wondering, only about 50% of the employees at the CDC and the NIH have taken a covid vaccine.
Why is that, and why are all those other front line doctor's and nurses who also refuse to take it never talked about?
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  #280  
Old 05-16-2021, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by irv View Post
And again, where is all the concrete proof these vaccines are actually doing anything in protecting anyone from contracting covid?

I know one thing for certain, they have caused blood clots, balls palsy, anaphylaxis, thrombosis, severe respiratory problems, severe aches and pains, hospitalization and of course numerous deaths.

Why is it still being administered and not removed/banned?

Look at the other drugs that have been taken off the market for far less worse issues???

Also, if anyone was wondering, only about 50% of the employees at the CDC and the NIH have taken a covid vaccine.
Why is that, and why are all those other front line doctor's and nurses who also refuse to take it never talked about?
https://www.tiktok.com/@backwoodsgir...urce=copy&_r=1
I don't know what you watch in Canada, but here in the US the vaccines have been so effective that the CDC just dramatically lifted many restrictions. But maybe all the sources reporting that, and the CDC itself, and the studies (including a study of healthcare workers that was a key part of the CDC's decision) all are biased or something.

https://www.nbcnews.com/science/scie...ndates-rcna932

Or maybe you just see what you want to see.
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Old 05-16-2021, 07:33 PM
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In one of the studies cited by the CDC, the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine was shown to be 97 percent effective at protecting against symptomatic infection and 86 percent effective at protecting against asymptomatic infection. Those results, published May 6 in the Journal of the American Medical Association, were based on a study of more than 6,700 vaccinated health care workers in Israel.

Walensky also referenced two recent U.S.-based studies that were published in the CDC's Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report. One study demonstrated that Covid-19 vaccines were 90 percent effective at preventing both symptomatic and asymptomatic infection among nearly 4,000 health care workers and front-line workers. A second study found the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines were 94 percent effective at preventing Covid-19-related-hospitalizations among adults 65 and older who have been fully vaccinated.
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Old 05-16-2021, 07:34 PM
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I don't know what you watch in Canada, but here in the US we have a 28 Trillion dollar debt, gas shortages and long lines, growing inflation, a border crisis, rising taxes, riots in the streets and much, much more. So, to divert the attention from all that, the government lifted many restrictions.
Since Peter is blinded to what's happening in the US, I corrected part of his statement for him.
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Old 05-16-2021, 07:37 PM
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Since Peter is blinded to what's happening in the US, I corrected part of his statement for him.
I knew it was all a conspiracy!! "They" have done it again. And to think, I thought Rochelle Walensky, who was an infectious disease doctor here in Boston for many years, had some integrity. "They" got to her I guess.
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Old 05-16-2021, 07:42 PM
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I knew it was all a conspiracy!! "They" have done it again. And to think, I thought Rochelle Walensky, who was an infectious disease doctor here in Boston for many years, had some integrity. "They" got to her I guess.
I'm not talking about the disease itself. I'm talking about the timing of lifting the restrictions. Let's cut the crap.
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Old 05-16-2021, 07:45 PM
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I'm not talking about the disease itself. I'm talking about the timing of lifting the restrictions. Let's cut the crap.
That's exactly what I'm talking about. The timing. Which, as I read it, was based on the studies. You can disagree with the CDC -- in fact I wish they had kept the foot on the gas pedal. But it's not some left-wing plot.
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Old 05-16-2021, 07:48 PM
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That's exactly what I'm talking about. The timing. Which, as I read it, was based on the studies. You can disagree with the CDC -- in fact I wish they had kept the foot on the gas pedal. But it's not some left-wing plot.
Studies? What changed? If the vaccine is as effective as they say it is (and I'm not questioning its effectiveness), why weren't the restrictions lifted for fully vaccinated people several months ago? Again, what changed. Be specific, not just "studies."
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Old 05-16-2021, 07:49 PM
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Studies? What changed? If the vaccine is as effective as they say it is (and I'm not questioning its effectiveness), why weren't the restrictions lifted for fully vaccinated people several months ago? Again, what changed. Be specific, not just "studies."
Read what I quoted. There were further studies of actual real world experience that were published recently, combined with overall statistics showing rates declining and so forth.
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Old 05-16-2021, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
I don't know what you watch in Canada, but here in the US the vaccines have been so effective that the CDC just dramatically lifted many restrictions. But maybe all the sources reporting that, and the CDC itself, and the studies (including a study of healthcare workers that was a key part of the CDC's decision) all are biased or something.

https://www.nbcnews.com/science/scie...ndates-rcna932

Or maybe you just see what you want to see.
If you believe that, I have some swamp land I could sell you, Pete.

Could it possibly be, since many people are protesting the lockdowns, refusing the vaccines and basically just getting on with their lives, have anything to do with that? ​
Could it be the fact the heat is on Fauci and the NIH and the fact they funded the Wuhan lab even though Fauci has denied that from the very beginning, have anything to do with that?

I won't say anymore due to the political no no here but I suggest you do some digging/research, Pete, if you think there is nothing political behind this whole pandemic,,,,,,,, or is that a plan-demic?

But that aside, with so many still getting covid after receiving both shots, again, where is the proof they actually work besides some B.S. story, that only sheep would gobble up, that because they are lifting restrictions, they work?








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Old 05-16-2021, 07:54 PM
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OK Dale the studies are all fake. It's just a BS story you must be right. Tell you what go read them, come back and point out the flaws instead of spewing your conspiratorial BS, OK?

Deny everything that doesn't fit your narrative. Just call it fake. Hmmm, who do I know that does that a lot? Hell, people deny Newtown CT too.

Anyone can deny anything, just demand proof, when given proof call it fake, then demand proof again.
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Old 05-16-2021, 07:54 PM
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If you believe that, I have some swamp land I could sell you, Pete.
He'll pay top dollar too.
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Old 05-16-2021, 07:59 PM
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OK Dale the studies are all fake. Go read them, come back and point out the flaws instead of spewing paranoid BS, OK?
Peter, I read part of what you linked, but had to stop. Your Dr. Walensky was touting how effective the vaccine is. Ok, let's roll with that. If it's really that effective (and again, I'm not questioning the effectiveness), why are so many vaccinated people concerned with the ones that haven't been vaccinated? I keep asking this, but fail to get a logical answer.
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Old 05-16-2021, 08:01 PM
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Oh its finally OK NOT to wear a mask outside if you got your Fauci ouchie?


Use your friggin common sense sheeple.


Must be that new science that told us this
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Old 05-16-2021, 08:02 PM
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Peter, I read part of what you linked, but had to stop. Your Dr. Walensky was touting how effective the vaccine is. Ok, let's roll with that. If it's really that effective (and again, I'm not questioning the effectiveness), why are so many vaccinated people concerned with the ones that haven't been vaccinated? I keep asking this, but fail to get a logical answer.
Because they would like to see the fucking pandemic end for the sake of the fucking world.
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Old 05-16-2021, 08:06 PM
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He'll pay top dollar too.
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Old 05-16-2021, 08:35 PM
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Because they would like to see the fucking pandemic end for the sake of the fucking world.
And that's a stupid fucking answer. When I was in the Army, I worked in an Army hospital - 97th General Hospital, Frankfurt, Germany. I have received more vaccines in a matter of just a few years than you've received in your lifetime. Wanna bet? I'll open up my vaccine card and show you. I've also given more vaccines than most doctors have in their lifetime...literally thousands to soldiers going to Bosnia and Croatia came through my line (which seemed never ending) for weeks at a time. Never once when I received a vaccine did I ever scratch my head and wonder if 'ol Johnny got one too. And when I was administering vaccines I didn't care which soldiers received them and which ones didn't. So cut the compassion for fellow human beings bullshit.
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Old 05-16-2021, 08:37 PM
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He'll pay top dollar too.
It's amazing what some will believe!

Just a week or so ago, Fauci and sleepy Joe were telling people to double mask then magically, just like that, the vaccines have cured everyone and masks are no longer required?!?!?

How some can't connect the dots despite what's right in front of their noses, is simply mindboggling.
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Old 05-16-2021, 08:44 PM
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And that's a stupid fucking answer. When I was in the Army, I worked in an Army hospital. I have received more vaccines in a matter of just a few years than you've received in your lifetime. Wanna bet? I'll open up my vaccine card and show you. I've also given more vaccines than most doctors have in their lifetime...literally thousands to soldiers going to Bosnia and Croatia came through my line (which seemed never ending) for weeks at a time. Never once when I received a vaccine did I ever scratch my head and wonder if 'ol Johnny got one too. And when I was administering vaccines did I care which soldiers received them and which ones didn't. So cut the compassion for fellow human beings bullshit.
David just because you have no humanity doesn't mean others don't. Revealing post though.
Besides, it's very inconvenient to have a world functioning suboptimally, so there's a totally selfish justification.

Edit thank you for serving and I say that with all sincerity.
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Old 05-16-2021, 08:45 PM
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It's amazing what some will believe!

Just a week or so ago, Fauci and sleepy Joe were telling people to double mask then magically, just like that, the vaccines have cured everyone and masks are no longer required?!?!?

How some can't connect the dots despite what's right in front of their noses, is simply mindboggling.
You've got it all figured out Dale. Now tell me the flaws in the studies. Oh wait, science is just part of the conspiracy, damn I forgot.
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Old 05-16-2021, 08:56 PM
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Since Peter is blinded to what's happening in the US, I corrected part of his statement for him.
Instead of trying to distract us by lifting restrictions, I wish they just would've gone golfing!
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Old 05-16-2021, 09:01 PM
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David just because you have no humanity doesn't mean others don't. Revealing post though.
Besides, it's very inconvenient to have a world functioning suboptimally, so there's a totally selfish justification.

Edit thank you for serving and I say that with all sincerity.
I have humanity, but I'm also realistic. My vaccine card is nearly 20 years old. It has Smallpox, Polio, Tet-Dipth, Typhoid, Meningitis, Adenovirus, Plague #1, Plague #2, Rubella and a lot more that I just can't read - and some of them more than once. I don't know what most of that stuff even is. I bet you the Army still vaccinates against those same things today - 20 years later (especially for their hospital workers).

And here is where I'm realistic. A vaccine (even if 100% effective) is not going to make a pandemic end. If the Army still vaccinates against those diseases listed above, and I'm pretty sure they do, it's for one reason: they never went away. But if you (and others) want to think this pandemic is just going to go away with some magical vaccine, by all means believe that.
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