Original 12-card horizontal E91 strip may reveal 1909 printing format

[tedzan]

The E91-A-B-C set totaling 99 subjects is a strange set.

It appears that American Caramel had a limited number of images. So, the same image can be two different players.

If I recall correctly, the Honus Wagner image is limited to only him.

The Walter Johnson image depicts him as a southpaw pitcher.

Like I said....it is a strange set.

I suggest you check out ebay listing of E91 cards and you will see what I'm saying.



TED Z
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[Zach Wheat]

Ted,

What are your thoughts in regards to the T201 set?

Z wheat

[ZachS]

Dave is right... every card is double printed.



........1..............1.............2............ 3.............4............5.............6........ ...2.............3.............4.............5.... .........6

[tedzan]

Double post

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Zach Wheat

Ted,

What are your thoughts in regards to the T201 set?

Z wheat

Sorry for the delay in responding.

The same 19-inch printing press used for printing T205's, T206's, etc., etc., was most likely used to print the T201 cards. As I show here, 8 cards
across the sheet fit quite easily.


v................................................. ......................................... 17-inches .................................................. ........................................v






TED Z
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[steve B]

Interesting stuff. Here's a few thoughts.

The E91s would have been in sheets while being made. It's possible they were issued as strips, but wouldn't have been printed as strips. Especially if you go with a 19" press, I can't imagine the challenge of running a 19 wide by 2-5 inch high strip into a press.

Do we know the E91s were done at ALC?

Which is related to

ALC is known to have used several hoe #5 presses, which were 19 inch. But that comes from a Scientific American article about their converting to electric power and is from a shop floor layout drawing showing only one floor and possibly only one room of the overall shop.

They would have had several different size presses, anywhere from small proofing presses that would fit on an end table to really large ones much larger than 19 inches wide.


The strips shown, even the 16 card strip have no right margin. Typically a margin is used all around the printed area because the press usually doesn't print well towards the edges of the sheet. So it's not certain the sheet was only 16 cards wide. It's certain it was at least 16 wide. A fine but important distinction.
I have seen a couple cards that might indicate ALC running without a margin on one side, the one that comes to mind right off is a T201 with a diamond miscut and showing part of the left margin.

The 16 card strip doesn't preclude a 19 inch press, as it would be possible to run a sheet about 19 x 24+ the long way. That's not typical, but could be done. Modern presses aren't set up to feed a sheet in narrow end first unless you're using a larger press than the width. (It's all about the diameter of the blanket cylinder) But the old ones have a very large cylinder.
That's actually a fairly close fit for the set. it would be a 16x6 card sheet, or 96 cards -2.9 sets/sheet with one card slightly short printed. That would also work on a press a bit larger, around 25-26 wide.

Steve B

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by steve B

Interesting stuff. Here's a few thoughts.

Do we know the E91s were done at ALC?


The 16 card strip doesn't preclude a 19 inch press, as it would be possible to run a sheet about 19 x 24+ the long way. That's not typical, but could be done.
Steve B

Thanks for chiming in here. I appreciate your expertise on printing matters.

1st....E91's (and most Candy cards) were printed in the greater Philadelphia (or York, PA) area. I have been unable to find out what printing firm produced them. Also, printed at
this same unknown Pennsy printing firm were the T216 tobacco cards (KOTTON, MINO, VIRGINIA EXTRA).

2nd....turning the printing plates 90 degrees to print a 16-card wide strip (or sheet) long-wise on a standard 19" x 24" sheet of cardboard is absolutely impractical and inefficient.

Sorry to disagree with you.


TED Z
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[Pat R]

Mile High also had an 18 card strip in one of their auctions.

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Mile High also had an 18 card strip in one of their auctions.

Take us to DEFCON 3.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Thanks for chiming in here. I appreciate your expertise on printing matters.

1st....E91's (and most Candy cards) were printed in the greater Philadelphia (or York, PA) area. I have been unable to find out what printing firm produced them. Also, printed at
this same unknown Pennsy printing firm were the T216 tobacco cards (KOTTON, MINO, VIRGINIA EXTRA).

2nd....turning the printing plates 90 degrees to print a 16-card wide strip (or sheet) long-wise on a standard 19" x 24" sheet of cardboard is absolutely impractical and inefficient.

Sorry to disagree with you.


TED Z
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Thanks Ted,

1 - That makes sense, the packing was more local than ATCs multiple plants. It would be interesting to see what the company used if we ever find out the company name. A good search of old printing magazines should turn up a few possibilities.

2 - Yes, impractical, inefficient, so unlikely. But probably possible. Possible as I use it is in the technical sense, with no implication as to whether it's either likely or a good idea. (Like it's possible I could hit a major league fastball, but extremely unlikely. )

As I've looked for more info, I've found that Hoe company made presses ranging from number 1 through at least number 5 maybe 6 with a few half sizes. They also numbered their letterpress presses with the same numbers. Some stuff I've just seen indicates the Hoe #5 Litho press was far larger than 19" And even the #3 was a big one.

Steve B

[steve B]

From "national lithographer" vol 28 an ad showing the maximum stone size of the Hoe number 5 and 3 lithographic presses.




From "aluminum world" volumes 4-6 --vol 6 number 3 December 1899. A brief mention of a two color litho press using aluminum plates being installed at ALC. The first mention I've seen of ALC actually having a two color press, which I've suspected they might have had and used for some of the card issues.



So there were a lot of big presses out there.

Steve B

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by tedzan

The E91-A-B-C set totaling 99 subjects is a strange set.

It appears that American Caramel had a limited number of images. So, the same image can be two different players.

If I recall correctly, the Honus Wagner image is limited to only him.

The Walter Johnson image depicts him as a southpaw pitcher.

Like I said....it is a strange set.

I suggest you check out ebay listing of E91 cards and you will see what I'm saying.



TED Z
.

I have already addressed Dave's question in this post.

What you cannot discern from my scan (sorry about its fuzziness) are the names of the Double-Printed images. As I stated (and this is well known)......
in the E91 set the same image was printed with 2 (or 3) different players.


TED Z
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[brianp-beme]

Hi Ted,

If it is Honus Wagner pictured in the strip, then this strip should just be cards from the E91C series, and thus what is seen on the strip is two examples of each of six players.

The E91A and E91B featured players from the Philadelphia A's, New York Giants and Chicago Cubs, while the E91C features players from the Washington Senators, Boston Red Sox, and the Pittsburgh Pirates.

By the way, the E91C Honus Wagner card utilizes the same image as is seen in the E91A and E91B sets as Joe Tinker, and the image seen on the E91C Walter Johnson card was originally identified as Rube Waddell in the E91A set, and as Harry Krause in the E91B set.

The makers of these sets utilized actual player.s (facial) images in creating the E91A set, and any of the E91B images that maintain the same player identification should be considered accurate (if perhaps Kewpie like) representations of the player. Any E91B card that does not maintain the same player designation, and all of the E91C set, should not be considered accurate player likenesses.

Brian

[brianp-beme]

Eww...I just looked at the strip closer, and it has to be either from the E91A or E91B sets, based upon the New York, Chicago and Philadelphia designations on their uniforms, and thus does not picture two Honus Wagners, but instead two Joe Tinkers.

Brian

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

Eww...I just looked at the strip closer, and it has to be either from the E91A or E91B sets, based upon the New York, Chicago and Philadelphia designations on their uniforms, and thus does not picture two Honus Wagners, but instead two Joe Tinkers.

Brian

I stand corrected.....your observation is better than mine.

The A's and New York Giants were not in the "C" series. However, I thought the "Wagner" image looked like Pittsburg was on the uniform.....my mistake.

So, this is strip is a 1909 issue. I'll correct that,

Thanks again.


TED Z
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[ZachS]

This should be John McGraw:



Unless I'm mistaken the only other player with this pose is Harry Hooper (Boston). So unless there is another New York player with this same pose, then the Wagner/Tinker card wouldn't be the only double print.

I'm fairly certain that there are other double printed cards on that strip.

[tedzan]

You are correct, it is McGraw and his card is Double-Printed.

I'm sure that thru out a large sheet of 72 cards (or more) of this series of 33 subjects there are many Double-Printed cards.

Thanx for your input.


TED Z
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