Hall of Fame Ballot Announced

G1911 · #1 11-11-2022, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raulus

Hope springs eternal!

I'm an optimist with my pessimism.

Tabe · #2 11-11-2022, 02:45 PM

When discussing Schilling's personality, it's also worth remembering that he stole a pile of money from the state of Rhode Island.

darwinbulldog · #3 11-11-2022, 03:21 PM

More than I am a big hall or small hall guy, I am a prefer-the-players'-Hall-fates-be-determined-by-what-they-did-on-the-field guy. I'm aware of the character clause and all, and I can understand why some voters really place a premium on that and feel qualified to evaluate everyone's character, but it's all just luck -- what combination of genetic and environmental forces conspired to make you a moral paragon or a total degenerate or a star athlete or an uncoordinated dolt. I just want a place that celebrates the best players.

G1911 · #4 11-11-2022, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tabe

When discussing Schilling's personality, it's also worth remembering that he stole a pile of money from the state of Rhode Island.

How about his humanitarian awards and charity? Or is that different, and only a company that ultimately failed, from which Schilling didn�t take a salary and lost millions himself on, that the state invested in should be a focus?

It�s a silly game of trying to find other reasons, applied to no other figure in baseball history, to justify the result without having to acknowledge what it plainly is.

Tabe · #5 11-11-2022, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

How about his humanitarian awards and charity? Or is that different, and only a company that ultimately failed, from which Schilling didn�t take a salary and lost millions himself on, that the state invested in should be a focus?

I was mentioning the fraud as an addendum took the mentions of his charity work. Just trying to help complete the picture.

Mike D. · #6 11-11-2022, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tabe

When discussing Schilling's personality, it's also worth remembering that he stole a pile of money from the state of Rhode Island.

At the time I proposed they should shackle him to the front steps of the state capital and make him sign autographs for $10 each until he paid it all back.

That being said, I'd vote for him for the Hall of Fame.

bbcard1 · #7 11-11-2022, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tabe

When discussing Schilling's personality, it's also worth remembering that he stole a pile of money from the state of Rhode Island.

I wouldn't go that far. He had a failed business. Didn't know what he was doing. He paid a pretty huge price. I'd bet 25% of people on this forum have a higher net worth than Schilling does at this point.

ejharrington · #8 11-11-2022, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tabe

When discussing Schilling's personality, it's also worth remembering that he stole a pile of money from the state of Rhode Island.

He didn't steal anything. Politicians invested money in his company and lost out when it failed.

Carter08 · #9 11-11-2022, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ejharrington

He didn't steal anything. Politicians invested money in his company and lost out when it failed.

He agreed to pay a few million back when sued for fraud and argued that he would pay more but he didn�t have it. Again, not losing sleep over someone like that not being in the hall. His bloody sock is probably in - that seems good enough. No cy youngs, a scattering of all star appearances. Great pitcher but not a clear cut guy to begin with and seems to have some issues.

Tabe · #10 11-11-2022, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ejharrington

He didn't steal anything. Politicians invested money in his company and lost out when it failed.

They took $75,000,000 from Rhode Island and filed bankruptcy a year later. They moved to RI in April 2011 and were already bouncing checks in May of 2012. Those in charge of the funding were found to have committed fraud and the company, Schilling included, knew they couldn't deliver what they had promised for that $75m. That's theft. Plain and simple.

G1911 · #11 11-11-2022, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tabe

They took $75,000,000 from Rhode Island and filed bankruptcy a year later. They moved to RI in April 2011 and were already bouncing checks in May of 2012. Those in charge of the funding were found to have committed fraud and the company, Schilling included, knew they couldn't deliver what they had promised for that $75m. That's theft. Plain and simple.

They received the investment loan in 2010, May 2012 is the collapse. That they ran out of money is not unusual. They didn't make it. Most businesses fail. Is there any evidence that they could not have created the 450 jobs if they had succeeded? That doesn't seem like overkill for a studio that succeeds. There's a very good argument the government should not engage in this kind of speculative investment, which I agree with.

It was reported in 2014 that some unnamed executives knew that the loan was not enough to cover all their expenses and finish the game (which was finished though). I am not clear whether there was some promise in the contract that the investment would be the only money needed by the company. That would be highly unusual. The SEC charged Rhode Island Commerce Corporation and Wells Fargo with fraud for not disclosing relevant information to bond holders. The Rhode Island police were also unable to find anything to charge Schilling or 38 with. Schilling and the company eventually had to pay $61 million in civil suits and costs, eating up most of Schilling's net worth, apparently.

Citation for theft charge, and the claim that Schilling knew the company would not succeed and could not deliver? They came close, their game got very good reviews and sold over a million copies in the first 90 days, it's not like they were selling a phantom product they never made.

As far as I can tell, the government made poor choices, the company got some big names in that world and put together a good product, but it failed as the majority do, and so the company went under and it's backers, Schilling primary among them, lost money.

I see zero relevance to the Hall of Fame. I can't find any evidence Schilling did anything wrong here. Maybe I'm missing a piece. While I disagree with many of his public comments, I don't see the problem with a business not succeeding.

Tabe · #12 11-11-2022, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

They received the investment loan in 2010, May 2012 is the collapse. That they ran out of money is not unusual. They didn't make it. Most businesses fail. Is there any evidence that they could not have created the 450 jobs if they had succeeded? That doesn't seem like overkill for a studio that succeeds. There's a very good argument the government should not engage in this kind of speculative investment, which I agree with.

It was reported in 2014 that some unnamed executives knew that the loan was not enough to cover all their expenses and finish the game (which was finished though). I am not clear whether there was some promise in the contract that the investment would be the only money needed by the company. That would be highly unusual. The SEC charged Rhode Island Commerce Corporation and Wells Fargo with fraud for not disclosing relevant information to bond holders. The Rhode Island police were also unable to find anything to charge Schilling or 38 with. Schilling and the company eventually had to pay $61 million in civil suits and costs, eating up most of Schilling's net worth, apparently.

Citation for theft charge, and the claim that Schilling knew the company would not succeed and could not deliver? They came close, their game got very good reviews and sold over a million copies in the first 90 days, it's not like they were selling a phantom product they never made.

As far as I can tell, the government made poor choices, the company got some big names in that world and put together a good product, but it failed as the majority do, and so the company went under and it's backers, Schilling primary among them, lost money.

I see zero relevance to the Hall of Fame. I can't find any evidence Schilling did anything wrong here. Maybe I'm missing a piece. While I disagree with many of his public comments, I don't see the problem with a business not succeeding.

The game in question was an MMORPG that was never completed and never released.

If you take money for something you know you can't do, that's theft. It's really that simple.

rhettyeakley · #13 11-12-2022, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tabe

The game in question was an MMORPG that was never completed and never released.

If you take money for something you know you can't do, that's theft. It's really that simple.

How does this relate to his baseball career?

He has the 26th all time highest WAR as a pitcher. There are 84 pitchers currently enshrined in the Hall of Fame. Just on the surface that hardly says �borderline� or �just outside� the hall standards.

I am not a Schilling fan but it seems some are looking for reasons to exclude.

G1911 · #14 11-12-2022, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tabe

The game in question was an MMORPG that was never completed and never released.

If you take money for something you know you can't do, that's theft. It's really that simple.

They released the single-player game to good reviews and decent sales in 2012. The MMO component, I see, is what the investment was for and ultimately didn't get to release when they ran out of money.

Still can't find any evidence at all that Schilling solicited and took money for a project he "knew" they couldn't do. That's a very, very serious crime if he did. Have that source for it?

BioCRN · #15 11-12-2022, 01:35 AM

Ah, a good ol' Curt "Schrodinger's HOF'r" Schilling discussion.

Great pitcher, especially considering he didn't fully figure it out until his late 20s. Shame he decided to alienate reporters and a few million other people as a post-career hobby.

Maybe we'll have less of this kind of thing in the future.

I'm more interested in how the committee will treat Bonds and Clemens.

Exhibitman · #16 11-12-2022, 05:48 AM

Ahh, enough time wasted on Schilling. He isn't disliked because he is a vocal Republican; he is disliked because he is a vocal asshole.

Let's talk Kenny Lofton. No character knocks on him. I absolutely hated seeing him come to the plate against teams I liked. I think the issue with him, frankly, is that he played a position at the time that always made him the third-best CF, behind Kirby Puckett and Ken Griffey Jr. Third fiddle in an orchestra with Jascha Heifetz and Izhak Perlman is pretty, pretty good, but won't get you the attention. The other issue was that he hung on after he'd lost a step or two and went from all-world to very good. I think that hurts his candidacy as it does Mattingly, Belle and Murphy. None of which I'd have an issue seeing in the HOF, but none of whom were anywhere near as valuable to their teams over their careers as Lofton was to his teams. His #s put him squarely in the middle of CFs in the HOF, just a tad below their average. His modern-style numbers are better than those three by a lot, but are a completely different mix of components.

cgjackson222 · #17 11-12-2022, 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Ahh, enough time wasted on Schilling. He isn't disliked because he is a vocal Republican; he is disliked because he is a vocal asshole.

Let's talk Kenny Lofton. No character knocks on him. I absolutely hated seeing him come to the plate against teams I liked. I think the issue with him, frankly, is that he played a position at the time that always made him the third-best CF, behind Kirby Puckett and Ken Griffey Jr. Third fiddle in an orchestra with Jascha Heifetz and Izhak Perlman is pretty, pretty good, but won't get you the attention. The other issue was that he hung on after he'd lost a step or two and went from all-world to very good. I think that hurts his candidacy as it does Mattingly, Belle and Murphy. None of which I'd have an issue seeing in the HOF, but none of whom were anywhere near as valuable to their teams over their careers as Lofton was to his teams. His #s put him squarely in the middle of CFs in the HOF, just a tad below their average. His modern-style numbers are better than those three by a lot, but are a completely different mix of components.

Agreed!!

Lofton is a top 10 Centerfielder in WAR and JAWS, ahead of such Hall of Famers as Andre Dawson, Richie Ashburn, and Kirby Puckett. I think he gets overlooked because he didn't have a lot of black ink, as he only led the league in stolen bases (5x in a row), triples (1�) and hits (1x), and nothing in the last decade of his career. So unlike a lot of the short peak, low WAR guys up for a vote (Murphy, Mattingly, Belle) the highest he finished in MVP voting was 4th and 11th. It should be noted that in 1994, when Lofton finished 4th in MVP, he actually led the American League in WAR with 7.2.

He also didn't win a World Series or play particularly well in the playoffs. Note that neither Murphy, Mattingly, or Palmeiro ever made it to the World Series, and Belle played on the same '95 WS team as Lofton (Lofton also got to the WS with San Francisco in 2002).

I think Kenny Lofton is underrated as a fielder. He won 4 Gold Gloves, but probably deserved more. His career dWAR is 15.5. To put that in perspective, Andruw Jones and Willie Mays, widely regarded as the best fielding CFs ever have 24.4 and 18.2 respectively. 10x Gold Glove winner Ken Griffey Jr. has a career dWAR of 2.2, 8x Gold Glove winner Jim Edmonds has a career dWAR of 6.4.

If you care about overall career value, Lofton should be in.

Mike D. · #18 11-12-2022, 09:35 AM

I agree on Lofton being a good candidate and perhaps the best "one and done" candidate ever.

He didn't have any controversy during his playing career, but last year there was this:

https://www.latimes.com/california/s...ton%20co%2Down

My read on it is that it's not really a big thing...some employees had access to someplace he shared nude pictures in private messages....more dumb than evil.

ejharrington · #19 11-12-2022, 10:25 AM

Curt is a clear cut HOFer.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_P.shtml

Jim65 · #20 11-12-2022, 10:30 AM

There are bad guys in the HOF, drug smugglers, players who beat up fans, punched umpires, spit in umpires face, racists, admitted cheaters, players who beat their wives, etc. Schilling's crime are words, he wouldn't be close to the worst guy in the HOF, if elected.

Mike D. · #21 11-12-2022, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim65

There are bad guys in the HOF, drug smugglers, players who beat up fans, punched umpires, spit in umpires face, racists, admitted cheaters, players who beat their wives, etc. Schilling's crime are words, he wouldn't be close to the worst guy in the HOF, if elected.

I tend to agree that we need to define the Hall of Fame by what a player does on the field. It's not realistic to play "morality police" and we can recognize a player's greatness on the field while not claiming they are saints.

Tabe · #22 11-12-2022, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

Agreed!!

Lofton is a top 10 Centerfielder in WAR and JAWS, ahead of such Hall of Famers as Andre Dawson, Richie Ashburn, and Kirby Puckett. I think he gets overlooked because he didn't have a lot of black ink, as he only led the league in stolen bases (5x in a row), triples (1�) and hits (1x), and nothing in the last decade of his career. So unlike a lot of the short peak, low WAR guys up for a vote (Murphy, Mattingly, Belle) the highest he finished in MVP voting was 4th and 11th. It should be noted that in 1994, when Lofton finished 4th in MVP, he actually led the American League in WAR with 7.2.

He also didn't win a World Series or play particularly well in the playoffs. Note that neither Murphy, Mattingly, or Palmeiro ever made it to the World Series, and Belle played on the same '95 WS team as Lofton (Lofton also got to the WS with San Francisco in 2002).

I think Kenny Lofton is underestimated as a fielder. He won 4 Gold Gloves, but probably deserved more. His career dWAR is 15.5. To put that in perspective, Andruw Jones and Willie Mays, widely regarded as the best fielding CFs ever have 24.4 and 18.2 respectively. 10x Gold Glove winner Ken Griffey Jr. has a career dWAR of 2.2, 8x Gold Glove winner Jim Edmonds has a career dWAR of 6.4.

If you care about overall career value, Lofton should be in.

Lofton never really struck me as a HOFer when he played but I'd be OK with him getting in. Jim Edmonds is a guy I don't understand not being in. Elite defender at a premium position, twice hit 40 homers, 393 career homers, 132 OPS+. That reads like a HOF resume to me.

Mike D. · #23 11-12-2022, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tabe

Lofton never really struck me as a HOFer when he played but I'd be OK with him getting in. Jim Edmonds is a guy I don't understand not being in. Elite defender at a premium position, twice hit 40 homers, 393 career homers, 132 OPS+. That reads like a HOF resume to me.

Yes, Edmonds is another good candidate. His WAR is significantly lower than Lofton's, but still well within the range of a Hall of Fame center fielder.

tod41 · #24 11-12-2022, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tabe

Lofton never really struck me as a HOFer when he played but I'd be OK with him getting in. Jim Edmonds is a guy I don't understand not being in. Elite defender at a premium position, twice hit 40 homers, 393 career homers, 132 OPS+. That reads like a HOF resume to me.

With all these relooks, Keith Hernandez should be seriously considered. His metrics are better than Mattingly's.

ejharrington · #25 11-12-2022, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tod41

With all these relooks, Keith Hernandez should be seriously considered. His metrics are better than Mattingly's.

100% agree.

Tabe · #26 11-12-2022, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tod41

With all these relooks, Keith Hernandez should be seriously considered. His metrics are better than Mattingly's.

I just don't see the case for Hernandez. Not much power, hit below .300, less than 2200 hits, etc. I know he's got all the Gold Gloves but, at the end of the day, 1B isn't a premium defensive position and dWAR doesn't like him that much. And, really, if you're putting in Hernandez, how do you leave out John Olerud?

rhettyeakley · #27 11-12-2022, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Ahh, enough time wasted on Schilling. He isn't disliked because he is a vocal Republican; he is disliked because he is a vocal asshole.

Let's talk Kenny Lofton. No character knocks on him. I absolutely hated seeing him come to the plate against teams I liked. I think the issue with him, frankly, is that he played a position at the time that always made him the third-best CF, behind Kirby Puckett and Ken Griffey Jr. Third fiddle in an orchestra with Jascha Heifetz and Izhak Perlman is pretty, pretty good, but won't get you the attention. The other issue was that he hung on after he'd lost a step or two and went from all-world to very good. I think that hurts his candidacy as it does Mattingly, Belle and Murphy. None of which I'd have an issue seeing in the HOF, but none of whom were anywhere near as valuable to their teams over their careers as Lofton was to his teams. His #s put him squarely in the middle of CFs in the HOF, just a tad below their average. His modern-style numbers are better than those three by a lot, but are a completely different mix of components.

I agree! I have always liked Lofton and never really understood why he hasn�t rec�d more support.

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