B/S/T Etiquette

Pato15 · #1 02-23-2025, 07:58 AM

I'm curious how people on both sides of the issue feel about this situation:

A potential buyer posts a claim in a B/S/T thread at the asking price and sends a PM at that time. Before the seller responds, they get an offer from another member offering more than the asking price. Neither buyer is objectionable to the seller. They end up taking the higher (later) offer simply for the money.

Personally, I wouldn't necessarily bear any ill will toward the seller in that situation. And yet, if I were the seller in such a situation, I would feel guilty not taking the first offer.

jayshum · #2 02-23-2025, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pato15

I'm curious how people on both sides of the issue feel about this situation:

A potential buyer posts a claim in a B/S/T thread at the asking price and sends a PM at that time. Before the seller responds, they get an offer from another member offering more than the asking price. Neither buyer is objectionable to the seller. They end up taking the higher (later) offer simply for the money.

Personally, I wouldn't necessarily bear any ill will toward the seller in that situation. And yet, if I were the seller in such a situation, I would feel guilty not taking the first offer.

This happens all the time in the housing market. No one seems to have a problem with it.

Balticfox · #3 02-23-2025, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayshum

This happens all the time in the housing market. No one seems to have a problem with it.

I do! For the listing price not to be treated as a firm offer to sell at that price is absurd. And you'll find it very difficult to find any stock broker who does not agree with me. Offer/Ask=the Price at which a Seller agrees to Sell. Bid=the Price at which a Buyer agrees to Buy.

jayshum · #4 02-23-2025, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balticfox

I do! For the listing price not to be treated as a firm offer to sell at that price is absurd. And you'll find it very difficult to find any stock broker who does not agree with me. Offer/Ask=the Price at which a Seller agrees to Sell. Bid=the Price at which a Buyer agrees to Buy.

The stock market and the housing market are very different as far as how they are regulated and how they work. Also, people have no problem offering less than the listed price for a house so why should a seller be prohibited from accepting a higher offer?

Balticfox · #5 02-23-2025, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayshum

Also, people have no problem offering less than the listed price for a house....

That's a bid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayshum

...so why should a seller be prohibited from accepting a higher offer?

No need for a prohibition. But since a buyer should be able to simply take up the offering, there would be no need to bid a higher price than the offering, i.e. listed price.

jayshum · #6 02-23-2025, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balticfox

That's a bid.

No need for a prohibition. But since a buyer should be able to simply take up the offering, there would be no need to bid a higher price than the offering, i.e. listed price.

I'm sorry if you don't like how the housing market works, but I don't think it's going to change just to make you happy.

Balticfox · #7 02-23-2025, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayshum

I'm sorry if you don't like how the housing market works....

Yes, that's the way house selling works, but it leaves a lot to be desired before it can be classified as a fair or efficient market.

Peter_Spaeth · #8 02-23-2025, 11:16 PM

B/S/T translations.

"Asking $1000 net to me dlvd."
Translation: if you offer me $1000, I'll consider it.

"I'll take it!!"
Translation: I offer $1000, should you choose to accept it.

"PM sent"
Translation: useless attempt to discourage subsequent offers because being first is irrelevant.

OhioLawyerF5 · #9 02-24-2025, 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balticfox

I do! For the listing price not to be treated as a firm offer to sell at that price is absurd. And you'll find it very difficult to find any stock broker who does not agree with me. Offer/Ask=the Price at which a Seller agrees to Sell. Bid=the Price at which a Buyer agrees to Buy.

For someone appearing to work in the stock market, you seem to not understand fundamental differences between a brokered sale of stock and a sale of private personal property, and the legal reasons for that (hint: there were a couple important laws passed in the 30s that deal with securities and treat them differently).

Balticfox · #10 02-24-2025, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

For someone appearing to work in the stock market....

Yes, that's what many customers would say about stockbrokers back in the day!

It's interesting though. If you asked me now whether I should have become an actual stock broker many years earlier in the 1970's, I'd now say "Sure!" But if you asked me whether I'd like to be a stock broker now, I'd say "No!" Times have changed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

..you seem to not understand fundamental differences between a brokered sale of stock and a sale of private personal property, and the legal reasons for that (hint: there were a couple important laws passed in the 30s that deal with securities and treat them differently).

I understand that stock and futures (e.g. commodities) markets are about as pure and efficient markets as can exist. I'm also fully aware that other kinds of selling fall far short of these in terms of purity/efficiency. Unlike you though I find this situation to be sad.

OhioLawyerF5 · #11 02-24-2025, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balticfox

Yes, that's what many customers would say about stockbrokers back in the day!

It's interesting though. If you asked me now whether I should have become an actual stock broker many years earlier in the 1970's, I'd now say "Sure!" But if you asked me whether I'd like to be a stock broker now, I'd say "No!" Times have changed.

I understand that stock and futures (e.g. commodities) markets are about as pure and efficient markets as can exist. I'm also fully aware that other kinds of selling fall far short of these in terms of purity/efficiency. Unlike you though I find this situation to be sad.

You can't possibly believe that to be true. It is the opposite of sad that a private sale of personal property is not as heavily regulated as the stock market. The last thing we need is more government interference in simple transactions.

Balticfox · #12 02-24-2025, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

You can't possibly believe that to be true. It is the opposite of sad that a private sale of personal property is not as heavily regulated as the stock market. The last thing we need is more government interference in simple transactions.

I agree. We need no more government regulations. I'm arguing for a simple "A man's word is his bond" standard. That's effectively what's been in force in stock, bond and futures markets since late in the 19th century.

Mark17 · #13 02-24-2025, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balticfox

I understand that stock and futures (e.g. commodities) markets are about as pure and efficient markets as can exist. I'm also fully aware that other kinds of selling fall far short of these in terms of purity/efficiency. Unlike you though I find this situation to be sad.

I'm curious. If
1. You had a unique item of a former player, let's say a vintage game used jersey
2. You list it for $1000, then go to a movie
3. When you return home, you have 2 people wanting to buy it. The first, timestamped at 7:30, is an auction house that will buy to flip. The second, timestamped a couple minutes later, is from the player's son. Turns out the player passed away the previous week and the family is in mourning.

Would you hold to your rigid, dogmatic principle of how pure and efficient markets should work (first offer to buy gets the cheese,) or take a more human approach?

clydepepper · #14 02-24-2025, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark17

I'm curious. If
1. You had a unique item of a former player, let's say a vintage game used jersey
2. You list it for $1000, then go to a movie
3. When you return home, you have 2 people wanting to buy it. The first, timestamped at 7:30, is an auction house that will buy to flip. The second, timestamped a couple minutes later, is from the player's son. Turns out the player passed away the previous week and the family is in mourning.

Would you hold to your rigid, dogmatic principle of how pure and efficient markets should work (first offer to buy gets the cheese,) or take a more human approach?

In my opinion (aka whatever that's worth), if both offers are forum members, the timestamp rules. Uncomplicated rule for someone who tries to be fair, but uncomplicated.

...'go to a what?'

Balticfox · #15 02-25-2025, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark17

I'm curious. If

1. You had a unique item of a former player, let's say a vintage game used jersey
2. You list it for $1000, then go to a movie
3. When you return home, you have 2 people wanting to buy it. The first, timestamped at 7:30, is an auction house that will buy to flip. The second, timestamped a couple minutes later, is from the player's son. Turns out the player passed away the previous week and the family is in mourning.

Would you hold to your rigid, dogmatic principle of how pure and efficient markets should work (first offer to buy gets the cheese,) or take a more human approach?

Well given the nature of this forum I would effectively be receiving both offers at the same time. Moreover given the inefficiencies introduced by living my life and other people living theirs, there can be no rational expectation that everyone sees my offer at the instant I post it. Therefore I would choose the player's son instead of the known flipper. Quite simply, I'd have the very good reason:

Quote:

Originally Posted by gregndodgers

Absent a good reason, an individual cannot simply choose whom to sell to.

But I would make my decision immediately at the time choosing from among the PM's I'd received.

Mark17 · #16 02-23-2025, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pato15

I'm curious how people on both sides of the issue feel about this situation:

A potential buyer posts a claim in a B/S/T thread at the asking price and sends a PM at that time. Before the seller responds, they get an offer from another member offering more than the asking price. Neither buyer is objectionable to the seller. They end up taking the higher (later) offer simply for the money.

Personally, I wouldn't necessarily bear any ill will toward the seller in that situation. And yet, if I were the seller in such a situation, I would feel guilty not taking the first offer.

Not me. I'd take the higher offer.

We aren't talking about a kidney for transplant - we're talking about highly non-essential collectibles.

Brent G. · #17 02-23-2025, 09:02 AM

Man people choose some weird hills to die on here ...

raulus · #18 02-23-2025, 11:15 AM

I’m guessing that part of the angst is probably driven by a comparison with eBay.

If I post a piece using the BIN function on eBay, and someone clicks the button to buy it, they can reasonably expect that I’m actually going to sell it to them.

If 30 mins later I get a PM from another buyer offering me more, and I cancel the original transaction, then the original buyer probably has a right to get their dander up.

Now, obviously, the BST here is not eBay. But for some buyers, they might feel like similar principles should apply.

Fred · #19 02-23-2025, 11:21 AM

Straight forward scenario/question:

Seller has item for sale in BST.

Buyer A makes the offer to pay asking price and agrees to all ship methods, etc.

Seller sends confirmation the item is sold to Buyer A.

A couple hours later, the seller receives correspondence indicating Buyer B is interested and seller tells Buyer B, "sorry, it's sold". Buyer B ups the offer by 20%. Seller decides they'd want more cash and will take the offer.

QUESTION - How would you feel as Buyer A? I read what the lawyers are writing and the word "contract" comes up. Is there really a legally binding contract based on a couple emails?

In my book, the seller's a butthead for backing out for any reason. I wouldn't pursue it further, just avoid the seller. I wouldn't create a post indicating the seller's a butthead, but fact is, the seller is a butthead if they renege on a deal (for just about any reason). Yes, it's the sellers item and prerogative to do whatever they choose, but if you have an agreement, honor it.

OhioLawyerF5 · #20 02-23-2025, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fred

Straight forward scenario/question:

Seller has item for sale in BST.

Buyer A makes the offer to pay asking price and agrees to all ship methods, etc.

Seller sends confirmation the item is sold to Buyer A.

A couple hours later, the seller receives correspondence indicating Buyer B is interested and seller tells Buyer B, "sorry, it's sold". Buyer B ups the offer by 20%. Seller decides they'd want more cash and will take the offer.

QUESTION - How would you feel as Buyer A? I read what the lawyers are writing and the word "contract" comes up. Is there really a legally binding contract based on a couple emails?

In my book, the seller's a butthead for backing out for any reason. I wouldn't pursue it further, just avoid the seller. I wouldn't create a post indicating the seller's a butthead, but fact is, the seller is a butthead if they renege on a deal (for just about any reason). Yes, it's the sellers item and prerogative to do whatever they choose, but if you have an agreement, honor it.

Agreement is offer and acceptance. That is a binding contract. A couple emails is more than sufficient evidence that a contract exists. Seller backs out after agreeing to the buyer's offer, it's a breach of that contract. That is different than the scenario in this thread, where the seller never agrees to sell to the buyer.

Mark17 · #21 02-23-2025, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

Agreement is offer and acceptance. That is a binding contract. A couple emails is more than sufficient evidence that a contract exists. Seller backs out after agreeing to the buyer's offer, it's a breach of that contract. That is different than the scenario in this thread, where the seller never agrees to sell to the buyer.

Exactly. Offers and discussions can be made, but when the seller agrees to a deal, that's the end of it.

OhioLawyerF5 · #22 02-23-2025, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark17

Exactly. Offers and discussions can be made, but when the seller agrees to a deal, that's the end of it.

Of course, it shouldn't be ignored that damages are potentially minimal, so pursuing the breach is often worthless, but it's still breach. And I would argue THAT is a breach of eitquette. Unlike this thread, where the breach of etiquette in my opinion is whining about not getting the card, not the seller selling to who they choose.

bnorth · #23 02-23-2025, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fred

Straight forward scenario/question:

Seller has item for sale in BST.

Buyer A makes the offer to pay asking price and agrees to all ship methods, etc.

Seller sends confirmation the item is sold to Buyer A.

A couple hours later, the seller receives correspondence indicating Buyer B is interested and seller tells Buyer B, "sorry, it's sold". Buyer B ups the offer by 20%. Seller decides they'd want more cash and will take the offer.

QUESTION - How would you feel as Buyer A? I read what the lawyers are writing and the word "contract" comes up. Is there really a legally binding contract based on a couple emails?

In my book, the seller's a butthead for backing out for any reason. I wouldn't pursue it further, just avoid the seller. I wouldn't create a post indicating the seller's a butthead, but fact is, the seller is a butthead if they renege on a deal (for just about any reason). Yes, it's the sellers item and prerogative to do whatever they choose, but if you have an agreement, honor it.

I have had this happen as a seller multiple times and buyer A got the card they paid for. I don't remember even having it happen to me as a buyer and I have never offered someone more to sell me a card they had already sold.

jingram058 · #24 02-23-2025, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fred

Straight forward scenario/question:

Seller has item for sale in BST.

Buyer A makes the offer to pay asking price and agrees to all ship methods, etc.

Seller sends confirmation the item is sold to Buyer A.

A couple hours later, the seller receives correspondence indicating Buyer B is interested and seller tells Buyer B, "sorry, it's sold". Buyer B ups the offer by 20%. Seller decides they'd want more cash and will take the offer.

QUESTION - How would you feel as Buyer A? I read what the lawyers are writing and the word "contract" comes up. Is there really a legally binding contract based on a couple emails?

In my book, the seller's a butthead for backing out for any reason. I wouldn't pursue it further, just avoid the seller. I wouldn't create a post indicating the seller's a butthead, but fact is, the seller is a butthead if they renege on a deal (for just about any reason). Yes, it's the sellers item and prerogative to do whatever they choose, but if you have an agreement, honor it.

If a seller did that, then that can eat fecal matter and die as far as I am concerned.

However, none of the deals I personally have been involved in here on net54 have been anywhere like that.

G1911 · #25 02-23-2025, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jingram058

If a seller did that, then that can eat fecal matter and die as far as I am concerned.

However, none of the deals I personally have been involved in here on net54 have been anywhere like that.

Death seems a bit severe for taking a higher offer

BRoberts · #26 02-23-2025, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

Death seems a bit severe for taking a higher offer

Penalty of death applies only to a seller of a slabbed card.

Mark17 · #27 02-23-2025, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

Death seems a bit severe for taking a higher offer

Mr. Monk would say eating fecal matter would be worse...

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