POLL: Who is responsible to reimburse collectors for bad autographs

[HRBAKER]

I would feel less comfortable buying an item with a PSA/DNA or JSA cert than from any of the gentlemen that Richard mentioned. What you are really referring to Casey is that the TPA COA makes the item more liquid in today's hobby that's all.

And again these authenticators have a sliding scale for their expertise based on the value of the item - that implies no expertise? They have the best of both worlds IMO, reap the benefits from implied expertise w/o any responsibility.

I agree with Barry, if I were making a living in this hobby and did not possess the personal expertise to operate w/o TPAs as the ones mentioned before I wouldn't touch an autograph.

[Caseyatbat]

Jeff, yes that is what I was saying. It makes the items more liquid especially in the eyes of a dealer. But also I still believe third party authentication is a necessity. I believe what Richard said earlier was true about who he felt were reliable dealers. But in the end, they are dealers. Buyers wants authentication from a "third party" that does not actually own that particular item and trying to sell it. And they want it from whoever the biggest and best name is. Right now, we all know who those 2 companies are.

The best place to buy higher end autographs are from reliable dealers who specialize in this particular area that provide both their own COA guarantee and still use the top TPA's as well. There is really no reason why even the most knowledgeable dealer in the industry should not use a TPA as well as give their own guarantee. Their investment into the TPA always come back when the item is sold. Most Dealers even get a pretty substantial discount with TPA's which makes it even more worthwhile to use them.

[HRBAKER]

Yes but Casey they are involved in the transaction to some extent even though they do not buy and sell autographs per se. If they charge a sliding scale based on the secondary value of the item then to me they are participating in the market.

[Caseyatbat]

Jeff I can tell you from my personal experience as a dealer, that if one of my autographs is not authenticated by the top 2 companies, the buyers email and ask "Why is this autograph not authenticated by *SA? And then they ask, "Do you guarantee it to pass *SA?" And the conversation usually ends with, "they will only buy the item if it comes with *SA authentication".

So if you are a dealer selling valuable autographs, it is much easier to just go ahead to satisfy the buyer and provide proper TPA. Most of the time the buyers are also willing to pay more for that particular item if it has this type of authentication. And not many people are asking for authentication from the reliable dealer names that were mentioned previously. Just about every buyer is asking for the top 2 companies and thats it. And they are the buyer, so that really forces dealers into using them.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Caseyatbat

Jeff I can tell you from my personal experience as a dealer, that if one of my autographs is not authenticated by the top 2 companies, the buyers email and ask "Why is this autograph not authenticated by *SA? And then they ask, "Do you guarantee it to pass *SA?" And the conversation usually ends with, "they will only buy the item if it comes with *SA authentication".

So if you are a dealer selling valuable autographs, it is much easier to just go ahead to satisfy the buyer and provide proper TPA. Most of the time the buyers are also willing to pay more for that particular item if it has this type of authentication. And not many people are asking for authentication from the reliable dealer names that were mentioned previously. Just about every buyer is asking for the top 2 companies and thats it. And they are the buyer, so that really forces dealers into using them.

I have probably been around longer than you Casey because the situation you describe happens to me only once or twice a year and it is usually from a new customer. I tell them I don't need TPA because I feel I know what I am doing.
In my ebay ads I state this:

If you see autographs on ebay with 3rd party authentication then you are paying for that authentication, whether you want it or not. The sellers are forcing you to pay for and accept the opinion of those companies. They will add the cost of authentication to the price of the item.
Established, reputable dealers who know their material don't need to use third party authenticators.

[Caseyatbat]

Richard, again I completely agree with you. Established reputable dealers don't need to use TPA's. But why not use them as well and yes build it into the price? I am only talking about higher end autographs. If buying a Babe Ruth single signed ball, we also have to take account signature removals, enhancements, etc. TPA's use sophisticated machinery for this. These dealers you are speaking of I highly doubt are using this type of machinery to make sure an item is single signed or not somehow professionally enhanced.

So when dealing with higher end autographs, I want both the reliable dealers guarantee such as the ones you are speaking of, and also I want a second opinion from the top TPA available. That is how I offer to sell my items as well. I am confident enough to offer my own guarantee and also offer a top TPA as well just to satisfy whichever customers wants it. All it does is open the window to more potential customers.

[drc]

Duly note I said the dealer is responsible for refund, but never said TPAs get a pass. I specifically added that it can be fair and reasonable for the TPA to owe money for poor, irresponsible work. If you think PSA did an absolutely rancid and entirely insipid job in rendering a wholly ridiculous opinion and should pay the $$, feel free to pursue that avenue. Perhaps the judge will agree with you. Perhaps I will agree with you.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Caseyatbat

Richard, again I completely agree with you. Established reputable dealers don't need to use TPA's. But why not use them as well and yes build it into the price? I am only talking about higher end autographs. If buying a Babe Ruth single signed ball, we also have to take account signature removals, enhancements, etc. TPA's use sophisticated machinery for this. These dealers you are speaking of I highly doubt are using this type of machinery to make sure an item is single signed or not somehow professionally enhanced.

So when dealing with higher end autographs, I want both the reliable dealers guarantee such as the ones you are speaking of, and also I want a second opinion from the top TPA available. That is how I offer to sell my items as well. I am confident enough to offer my own guarantee and also offer a top TPA as well just to satisfy whichever customers wants it. All it does is open the window to more potential customers.

Signature removals and enhancements are very easy to discern using a black light, which I use in all instances where I am buying or authenticating a baseball.
I am aware of the TPA's having certain equipment available to them, whether they actually use it or not, I don't know.

[Caseyatbat]

Richard, I respect your opinion and know you have been around in the hobby for a long time. But just because you have been doing it longer than me, does not mean that my own experiences are not valid. I am stating a fact when I say that using a TPA allows me to sell to a wider range of buyers. There are many buyers out there that have deep pockets and love buying this type of stuff, many of them will not buy the higher end items without proper TPA.

Nobody can argue with the fact that TPA's allow dealers to sell to a wider range of people. What about the buyers that are not that knowledgeable in the hobby but still have lots of money to spend on expensive items. Good chances they have never heard of the reputable dealers you mentioned earlier. But there are good chances they have heard of the top TPA's. So it is not rocket science to know which one they are going to ask for.

It is the same story in the Diamond business. When you buy a diamond from a dealer, it always comes with professional third party authentication from reputable companies. You don't just take the dealers word for it no matter how reputable he is. You want authentication from a gemologist, not a diamond dealer. Why would it be any different for this business? Buyers want authentication from an actual authenticator, not the dealer selling it.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Caseyatbat

Richard, I respect your opinion and know you have been around in the hobby for a long time. But just because you have been doing it longer than me, does not mean that my own experiences are not valid. I am stating a fact when I say that using a TPA allows me to sell to a wider range of buyers. There are many buyers out there that have deep pockets and love buying this type of stuff, many of them will not buy the higher end items without proper TPA.

Nobody can argue with the fact that TPA's allow dealers to sell to a wider range of people. What about the buyers that are not that knowledgeable in the hobby but still have lots of money to spend on expensive items. Good chances they have never heard of the reputable dealers you mentioned earlier. But there are good chances they have heard of the top TPA's. So it is not rocket science to know which one they are going to ask for.

It is the same story in the Diamond business. When you buy a diamond from a dealer, it always comes with professional third party authentication from reputable companies. You don't just take the dealers word for it no matter how reputable he is. You want authentication from a gemologist, not a diamond dealer. Why would it be any different for this business? Buyers want authentication from an actual authenticator, not the dealer selling it.

Casey,
I never meant to denigrate your experience, I wanted to show how it was different than mine.
How long has reputable diamond authentication been in the diamond business?
Has it led to non reputable authentication?
TPA in the autograph business has been around for about 10 years. The autograph business existed pretty well, obviously there were some problems, for about 100 years before TPA.
What I primarily object to is the buy the cert mentality over buy the autograph. The TPA do not bat 100%, they try to make it appear that they do, but we all know they do not.
The stories are going to continue to come out about things they have done and still do. These stories will change more collectors perceptions of the TPA companies.
This has been a good discourse and I am glad I started this thread.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Caseyatbat

It is the same story in the Diamond business. When you buy a diamond from a dealer, it always comes with professional third party authentication from reputable companies. You don't just take the dealers word for it no matter how reputable he is. You want authentication from a gemologist, not a diamond dealer. Why would it be any different for this business? Buyers want authentication from an actual authenticator, not the dealer selling it.

While this analogy seems sound on first glance, there is one sight difference between diamonds and autographs (I think) :

With a diamond, (I assume) there is a scientific way to determine if it is real, or fake. If my assumption is correct, the authenticator is dealing in facts.

With an autograph, we are dealing with opinions of authenticity, not facts. We can determine if the items involved in the autograph (paper, ink, pen style, angle of writing, pressures, etc) fit the usual known attributes, but we can not determine with absolute certainty whether (as an example) Walter Johnson signed his name to an item, and that he didn't have Joe Jackson sign for him.

Or am I missing something?
Doug