O/T feel sick inside - CT Elementary shooting

[Touch'EmAll]

In tears here in Canby, Oregon. We just had a shooting at one of our shopping malls. Now this. I have a 6 year old in Kindergarten.

Constitution or no Constitution, we did not have this type of thing happening back in the 1770's. The right to bear arms has to change.

Time for a STRICT GUN CONTROL/REGISTRATION/EXAM immediately - mandated by FEDERAL government to override all states. There is NO alternative choice.

Come on Obama, step up to the plate !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Scott, sure, maybe in a perfect world we could identify all paranoid schizophrenics at an early age and get them the treatment they need. But in the meantime, maybe politicians for once ought to show some cojones and take assault weapons off the table and stand up to the NRA. Yeah, we know the bullshit that people kill people guns don't, but there is no reason on earth for any civilian to be able to purchase an assault weapon. And it's too damn easy to buy a regular gun in this country too.

But I am pessimistic anything will change.

[kmac32]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Scott, sure, maybe in a perfect world we could identify all paranoid schizophrenics at an early age and get them the treatment they need. But in the meantime, maybe politicians for once ought to show some cojones and take assault weapons off the table and stand up to the NRA. Yeah, we know the bullshit that people kill people guns don't, but there is no reason on earth for any civilian to be able to purchase an assault weapon. And it's too damn easy to buy a regular gun in this country too.

But I am pessimistic anything will change.

100% agreement on this one

[Big Six]

Living in Monroe, one town over from Newtown, this was a very scary day. With three kids - one elementary and two in middle school - having their schools put in lockdown, it was comforting to know they were safe but frustrating to know I couldn't go pick them up from the schools. So glad they are home safe and sound...and praying for the parents in Newtown who can't say the same...

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Scott, sure, maybe in a perfect world we could identify all paranoid schizophrenics at an early age and get them the treatment they need. But in the meantime, maybe politicians for once ought to show some cojones and take assault weapons off the table and stand up to the NRA. Yeah, we know the bullshit that people kill people guns don't, but there is no reason on earth for any civilian to be able to purchase an assault weapon. And it's too damn easy to buy a regular gun in this country too.

But I am pessimistic anything will change.

I'm thinking about removing your keyboard, as we all know that without a keyboard, you couldn't put words in my mouth.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Runscott

I'm thinking about removing your keyboard, as we all know that without a keyboard, you couldn't put words in my mouth.

Scott did I mistake your meaning? Perhaps I misremembered our discussion on the Aurora thread?

[packs]

You can take away guns if your goal is to limit death. But for me one death is too many. You have to get to the root of why people are driven to kill like this to effect society as a whole. You can't have the mentality that limiting death is good. Which I think is the perspective of people who want to take all guns away. It's avoiding the larger societal issues and pressures we as a society don't understand yet. I'd like to get to the root of that and put gun control debates on hold.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

You can take away guns if your goal is to limit death. But for me one death is too many. You have to get to the root of why people are driven to kill like this to effect society as a whole. You can't have the mentality that limiting death is good. Which I think is the perspective of people who want to take all guns away. It's avoiding the larger societal issues and pressures we as a society don't understand yet. I'd like to get to the root of that and put gun control debates on hold.

I think that's an aspirational goal with which everyone would agree, but how realistic is that? What specifically do you propose to do? What does it mean, let's get at the root of what drives people to kill?

[packs]

Not just murder in a singular act. But what is driving people to kill as many people as they can at once? Almost entirely strangers for the most part. Is it the celebrity that the media creates? Or is it driven by something else? In Asia they have had a slew of mass stabbing outbreaks at elementary schools. They have yet to understand why they're the target, much like we have yet to understand why mass killings happen so frequently in this country. I understand that a gun allows a person to inflict mass damage with minimum effort. But why is that person holding it?

[cyseymour]

The biggest problem is that the media gets on the story and starts posting photos of the murderer and talking about his life. Then there are other sick people reading it who want the same attention. They turn murder into a theatrical performance, each time finding a new locale - a movie theater, a mall, a Sikh temple, an elementary school, etc. Just another cruel twist on the same theme, so they can be known as the "guy who did the murder in the _____." Just always finding a new way to shock people.

The media has got to stop publishing the names of the murderers. Otherwise, the whole thing will never end. Anytime they talk about the murderer's life, it is just another advertisement to encourage another shooting. If they stopped calling the murderer by name, you'd see the rate of the shootings decrease, and fast. Stop giving them the spotlight.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by packs

You can take away guns if your goal is to limit death. But for me one death is too many. You have to get to the root of why people are driven to kill like this to effect society as a whole. You can't have the mentality that limiting death is good. Which I think is the perspective of people who want to take all guns away. It's avoiding the larger societal issues and pressures we as a society don't understand yet. I'd like to get to the root of that and put gun control debates on hold.

Well-said. We're a society that likes to fix symptoms. It's horrible what happened today in Connecticut - perhaps the most horrible thing I've heard about in many years.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Scott did I mistake your meaning? Perhaps I misremembered our discussion on the Aurora thread?

Yes, this part: "in a perfect world we could identify all paranoid schizophrenics at an early age and get them the treatment"

I have never suggested that we should try to identify all people with mental illness. And I never suggested as much in the Aurora thread.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Yes, this part: "in a perfect world we could identify all paranoid schizophrenics at an early age and get them the treatment"

I have never suggested that we should try to identify all people with mental illness. And I never suggested as much in the Aurora thread.

OK my bad, I overstated your point of view and I apologize.

[oldjudge]

Peter--but little school children. I never heard of that. If I missed it, shame on me. However, I think things have changed and society has to do something about it.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

OK my bad, I overstated your point of view and I apologize.

Thanks Peter.

Edited to remove some content. After reading Ben's post in the other thread, I'm thinking this is a subject where 99% of the board are totally ignorant. I've retracted my decision to share anything with such people.

[bbcarddan]

Hearing the news of this senseless tragedy makes me sick to my stomach. The school bus could not get my 5 year old daughter back to me fast enough today!

Obviously everyone is saddened and upset about what has happened today,but regardless which side you are on the gun control topic can wait. Just my opinion.

At this time I can only think of the families and what they are going through! My thoughts and prayers are with them!

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Scott, sure, maybe in a perfect world we could identify all paranoid schizophrenics at an early age and get them the treatment they need. But in the meantime, maybe politicians for once ought to show some cojones and take assault weapons off the table and stand up to the NRA. Yeah, we know the bullshit that people kill people guns don't, but there is no reason on earth for any civilian to be able to purchase an assault weapon. And it's too damn easy to buy a regular gun in this country too.

But I am pessimistic anything will change.

Peter, in a BETTER world, we'd at least try to identify SOME of them, and try to get them treatment. If not for themselves, which I realize very few people could care less about anyone with mental illness, then for the people they affect through killings like this.

I'm in agreement with you on removing assault weapons. That would force people who want to kill, to choose alternative methods - like Timothy McVee did.

[Touch'EmAll]

Geklund311 - we have to start somewhere by making it illegal to own "X" type gun. Better to start somewhere than not to start at all and shove our faces in the ground and ignore it.

Change takes time, we need to start somewhere.

I am still trembling with the occasional tear.

[Gecklund311]

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

Geklund311 - we have to start somewhere by making it illegal to own "X" type gun. Better to start somewhere than not to start at all and shove our faces in the ground and ignore it.

Change takes time, we need to start somewhere.

I am still trembling with the occasional tear.

Making it illegal to own "X" gun is pretty much ignoring it - it is a solution designed to make the supporters feel good that they are "doing something" about the problem. I lived in Chicago for a few years, and the gun laws are quite tough there (a good thing, IMO), but that doesn't prevent people there from killing each other at an alarming rate. Gun laws, however well intentioned, don't work so well when parts of society have no intention of following them.

The larger problem is a kind of societal rot, with gun violence as a symptom. There are too many kids growing up in broken homes, and many others whose parents have checked out and don't take their job with the seriousness that it deserves. Even growing up in the suburbs, I was amazed at how many of my friends had parents who had no clue how to talk to them - they were essentially raised by television and Nintendo. Those kids often grow up emotionally stunted, not feeling that they have anyone that they can really talk to, and I would suspect that many of the spree shooters that we've been seeing more of were raised in those circumstances.

[ChrisH]

Unlike many of you here, I'm not a father. I do have 4 nephews and 1 niece though who are very dear to my heart. I can't imagine what it'd be like to lose them in a place where they are supposed to be safest. In school. Like some of you have said, I never once felt unsafe in school. Its really a sad day when we have to worry about sending kids to school for fear that one of us may get that phone call that a little one we hold near and dear to our hearts will no longer grace us with their presence on this Earth.

[Blunder19]

My prayers go out to the victims familys

[Yankeefan51]

As a country, we are trained to imagine the unimaginable.

We are so worried about due process and the rights of the sub-humans that
commit horrific crimes, we almost encourage violence.

Our recommendation is the death penalty by hanging or lethal injection for anyone convicted of murder. We should have a national gun ban. And to enforce the law, anyone who sells gun illegally is liable for the consequences.

E Bay should step up to the plate and ban the sale guns and weapons after January 1, 2013.

Drugs are another source of our culture of depravity. We should ban all illegal drugs- federally. Anyone selling drugs should receive a minimum 25 year sentence of hard labor. Anyone using drugs should lose any Federal Aid and lose their scholarship and student loan if if they have one.

We would be far better off if we banned the sale of liquor on college campuses and fined the owners of pubs, restaurants and clubs a minimum of $10,000 each time they sold liquor to a minor.

It is time for America to deal with reality. The only way to stop these crimes
murders, accidents and deaths is making the punishment so severe that it
will force everyone to think twice before breaking the law.

One additional way to enforce the drug and liquor laws is to hire students to turn those who violate the law into the police. For every student convicted
let's reward the student who identified the criminal with $1000 tax free.

Let's do what is Right For America


Bruce

[Peter_Spaeth]

Bruce, respectfully, paranoid schizophrenics are not going to be deterred by any form of punishment -- indeed today's shooter killed himself.

[packs]

I disagree for a lot of reasons. But I'll stick to just one. You want anyone convicted of murder put to death. Since the year 2000 over 60 people sentenced to death have been exonerated and had their convictions over turned due to advanced DNA technology. Who knows how many people before the use of DNA were put to death for crimes they didn't commit.

[Runscott]

........

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Yankeefan51

As a country, we are trained to imagine the unimaginable.

We are so worried about due process and the rights of the sub-humans that
commit horrific crimes, we almost encourage violence.

Our recommendation is the death penalty by hanging or lethal injection for anyone convicted of murder. We should have a national gun ban. And to enforce the law, anyone who sells gun illegally is liable for the consequences.

E Bay should step up to the plate and ban the sale guns and weapons after January 1, 2013.

Drugs are another source of our culture of depravity. We should ban all illegal drugs- federally. Anyone selling drugs should receive a minimum 25 year sentence of hard labor. Anyone using drugs should lose any Federal Aid and lose their scholarship and student loan if if they have one.

We would be far better off if we banned the sale of liquor on college campuses and fined the owners of pubs, restaurants and clubs a minimum of $10,000 each time they sold liquor to a minor.

It is time for America to deal with reality. The only way to stop these crimes
murders, accidents and deaths is making the punishment so severe that it
will force everyone to think twice before breaking the law.

One additional way to enforce the drug and liquor laws is to hire students to turn those who violate the law into the police. For every student convicted
let's reward the student who identified the criminal with $1000 tax free.

Let's do what is Right For America


Bruce

I used to be for the death penalty, but it really doesn't work as a deterrent, costs more, and as someone else pointed out our system isn't always accurate. I do think it should be available, but used sparingly and only in cases where there's 100% certainty of guilt.

Ebay already disallows the sale of guns. It's been that way since I think 1999?

Illegal drugs are in fact already banned that's why they're illegal.

Mass is already close to that. Fine up to 2000 or/and up to a year in jail. Bars and restauraunts usually get a 3-6 day suspension of license for a first offense which means probably close to that 10K for a busy place. (And yet a person 18 and over can sell or serve alcohol- yes, we're kinda strange here)

Paid informants? Please lets not go down that road.

Steve B

[yanks12025]

Also why was the kid allowed into the school, don't they lock the doors and people have to get buzzed in.

[Gecklund311]

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

In tears here in Canby, Oregon. We just had a shooting at one of our shopping malls. Now this. I have a 6 year old in Kindergarten.

Constitution or no Constitution, we did not have this type of thing happening back in the 1770's. The right to bear arms has to change.

Time for a STRICT GUN CONTROL/REGISTRATION/EXAM immediately - mandated by FEDERAL government to override all states. There is NO alternative choice.

Come on Obama, step up to the plate !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That would be a wonderful solution if we were starting a country from scratch, but we aren't. What do you propose to do with the guns already out there?

Somehow I doubt that the dirtbag gang-bangers that I see walking around Chicago will be lining up to register their guns or take an exam.

[Vintageismygame]

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

In tears here in Canby, Oregon. We just had a shooting at one of our shopping malls. Now this. I have a 6 year old in Kindergarten.

Constitution or no Constitution, we did not have this type of thing happening back in the 1770's. The right to bear arms has to change.

Time for a STRICT GUN CONTROL/REGISTRATION/EXAM immediately - mandated by FEDERAL government to override all states. There is NO alternative choice.

Come on Obama, step up to the plate !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If the government goes as drastic as you say . . . . hang on because the blood will run in the streets.