Stunning quote on altered cards

[Peter_Spaeth]

From an email from Evan Mathis to Sports Illustrated. Quote below and then link to article.

"To the purists who think a card should always be in its original condition: That just isn’t going to happen in the current state of the industry, and you should avoid buying graded cards.”

https://www.si.com/mlb/2021/07/06/to...ow-daily-cover

If Evan's right, the TPGs may not even be trying except in blatant cases.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Well, if anyone would know...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Well, if anyone would know...

It's a safe presumption Evan is well-connected at least at PSA.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's a safe presumption Evan is well-connected at least at PSA.

Also a known fact that he purchased a laser paper trimmer on ebay.

[Flintboy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

From an email from Evan Mathis to Sports Illustrated. Quote below and then link to article.

"To the purists who think a card should always be in its original condition: That just isn’t going to happen in the current state of the industry, and you should avoid buying graded cards.”

https://www.si.com/mlb/2021/07/06/to...ow-daily-cover

If Evan's right, the TPGs may not even be trying except in blatant cases.

I’m a purist but I don’t think Evans’s statement is wrong. In fact it’s good advice.

[Bicem]

Originally Posted by Flintboy

I’m a purist but I don’t think Evans’s statement is wrong. In fact it’s good advice.

Agreed. If you assume all cards are altered and price accordingly you'll be fine.

[Casey2296]

"Buy the edges not the slab" is going to become even more popular for pre-war guys. Gem mint & modern guys are going to have a tough time.
-

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Bicem

Agreed. If you assume all cards are altered and price accordingly you'll be fine.

I refuse to think all cards are altered. We just need to buy the borders.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I like that one MUCH better than the PSA 7.

[jingram058]

Nice cards there, Leon!

[Exhibitman]

So, as in many other aspects of life, size matters?

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

From an email from Evan Mathis to Sports Illustrated. Quote below and then link to article.

"To the purists who think a card should always be in its original condition: That just isn’t going to happen in the current state of the industry, and you should avoid buying graded cards.”

https://www.si.com/mlb/2021/07/06/to...ow-daily-cover

If Evan's right, the TPGs may not even be trying except in blatant cases.

I guess nothing came of the FBI Investigation on Altered Card Doctors from the 2019 National. If memory serves me correct I believe the FBI was at the last National In Chicago with subpoenas.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

I guess nothing came of the FBI Investigation on Altered Card Doctors from the 2019 National. If memory serves me correct I believe the FBI was at the last National In Chicago with subpoenas.

It was. The investigation likely is ongoing, recall Mastro took many years and this is much broader. That is not to say I am confident as to what will come of it, who knows.

But it's clear that if Evan is right, slabbing altered cards is now the norm and presumably the TPGs are in on this. It will be interesting to see if any have any comment about the SI piece. Steve Sloan is probably too busy spinning higher prices.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I like that one MUCH better than the PSA 7.

The SGC 60 shown is way oversized. I like the 7 better. And it too has larger borders than most other cards like it I have compared it to, and I have compared it to a lot of them.

[3-2-count]

For the record, I like the 7 better too Leon.

[Peter_Spaeth]

SMH that this thread got essentially no traction. I guess we're so numb at this point...

[CobbSpikedMe]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

SMH that this thread got essentially no traction. I guess we're so numb at this point...

I was thinking the same thing today. I guess it's just something we all knew already and it's not as shocking as it should be at this point.



.

[DeanH3]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

SMH that this thread got essentially no traction. I guess we're so numb at this point...

Unfortunately I think this is too accurate.

fatties?

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

SMH that this thread got essentially no traction. I guess we're so numb at this point...

It’s sad people don’t care they just show their cards off instead lol again it really is all about they money. I guess to many big important people own cards for them to have a massive scandal about altered cards, investor groups manipulating sales, and or a whistleblower coming out from the inside exposing would cause a major hit to the value of the industry.
Money talks.

Card doctors, shillers, and flat out crooks in this industry are like athletes foot, they’re a fungus that keeps coming back and never fully goes away.

[skelly423]

I take a different view to the quote. It's one man's opinion, but he doesn't speak for the hobby at large, and I don't think he's saying anything that isn't common knowledge. It has been well known that grading companies don't have a great track record with altered cards, including the most famous card in the entire hobby, the Gretzky/McNall Wagner.

I don't have to accept altered cards in my collection (and won't), and I have probably passed on legitimate examples in my efforts to avoid doctored cards. To me the holder and assigned grade are a helpful guide, but I revert back to the same old maxim; buy the card, not the holder. Regardless of what the slab says, if I'm not sure the card is original and unaltered, I don't buy.

[tiger8mush]

Trimming is likely the most common alteration for altered cards, but that generally isn't what I fear ... its the touch-up recoloring and rebuilding corners etc that are difficult to catch in a scan (let alone in person).

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

Trimming is likely the most common alteration for altered cards, but that generally isn't what I fear ... its the touch-up recoloring and rebuilding corners etc that are difficult to catch in a scan (let alone in person).

I would say 40% or more of Pre WW Cards in PSA holders are trimmed or re colored….I’m not talking soak out of a book or corner flipped I’m taking cut and colored.

[fkm_bky]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

I would say 40% or more of Pre WW Cards in PSA holders are trimmed or re colored….I’m not talking soak out of a book or corner flipped I’m taking cut and colored.

When we’re talking about these percentages of altered cards and such, at what grade level is it really the most prevalent? I’m assuming (going by PSA grading scale) from 3 or 4 on up? My collection right now is lower grade, but my plan is to upgrade as much as I can over time. Personally, I’ll take a nice looking unaltered 2 over the risk of a potentially altered 4 or 5.

Bill

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by fkm_bky

When we’re talking about these percentages of altered cards and such, at what grade level is it really the most prevalent? I’m assuming (going by PSA grading scale) from 3 or 4 on up? My collection right now is lower grade, but my plan is to upgrade as much as I can over time. Personally, I’ll take a nice looking unaltered 2 over the risk of a potentially altered 4 or 5.

Bill

All Grades

[packs]

No, it is not all grades. I am 100% confident that I do not have a single altered card in my collection. Mostly because I collect the card and not the holder.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

I would say 40% or more of Pre WW Cards in PSA holders are trimmed or re colored….I’m not talking soak out of a book or corner flipped I’m taking cut and colored.

I disagree. The sheer numbers of cards would tend to suggest that is an overstatement. I would agree that a large % of the allegedly high grade prewar cards have been altered. Those of us who've been around collecting for 40+ years know what was out there on average in the cheap days and as compared to what is out there now, the ratio of high grade to all grades has increased over time. I do not think that is the result of 'finds' (though there have been some, e.g., the Black Swamp), but for sets like T206 and 1933 Goudey, no, sorry, those cards have been worked.

[Flintboy]

Originally Posted by packs

No, it is not all grades. I am 100% confident that I do not have a single altered card in my collection. Mostly because I collect the card and not the holder.

Keep telling yourself that. These guys are so good now it’s impossible to tell unless you have the before scan.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Flintboy

Keep telling yourself that. These guys are so good now it’s impossible to tell unless you have the before scan.

I agree with Packs on this one. I don't have a single altered card in my collection. I don't need a before scan, I have an eagle eye. Even on my worst day, I'm twice as good as any grader.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

But it's clear that if Evan is right, slabbing altered cards is now the norm and presumably the TPGs are in on this.

I've been saying that for a while now, there was just no way anyone could be that incompetent that often and not be in on it.

[samosa4u]

First of all, I just hate it when an author tries to explain the whole entire hobby, from A to Z, in one freaking article! It's ridiculous and it puts the average reader to sleep!

Now, regarding Evan Mathis, I agree with his quote. The way things currently are, and the huge price differences between grades, it's obviously going to be very tempting to improve a card's condition. However, it's quite pathetic that Evan's name had to be linked to all of this. We're talking about an NFL superstar who made millions in his career. The guys who normally alter cards are bums without a profession and have no other source of income. If the accusations against Evan are true, then what's his excuse?

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by steve b

i've been saying that for a while now, there was just no way anyone could be that incompetent that often and not be in on it.

bingo

[Eric72]

Peter,

I’m sure most of us feel bitterness/anger/outrage over this issue. However, it’s not exactly unexpected news. Considering the source of the quote, it’s even less surprising. Some might even think he was attempting to deflect some of the angst directed towards him over the paper cutter purchase and related gossip regarding trimming.

Additionally, some of us already suspected there is rampant card doctoring in the hobby. We have for years. Others adopted this mindset recently. Still others are just now coming to this conclusion.

The point being, there was not a singular event that opened everybody’s eyes simultaneously. Like many theories, there are visionaries, early adopters, those who come to accept an idea slowly over time, and those who will never agree.

Am I surprised by the quote? No.

I do find it extremely distasteful, though. I also find the behavior of the card doctors (and their partners-in-crime) to be disgusting. What they’re doing is similar to a strip mining operation. They’ve taken something beautiful (the hobby) and extracted whatever they could…in the name of short-term profits…with no regard for the damage done or mess left behind.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

From an email from Evan Mathis to Sports Illustrated. Quote below and then link to article.

"To the purists who think a card should always be in its original condition: That just isn’t going to happen in the current state of the industry, and you should avoid buying graded cards.”

https://www.si.com/mlb/2021/07/06/to...ow-daily-cover

If Evan's right, the TPGs may not even be trying except in blatant cases.

Nothing shocks me anymore when it comes to altered cards. It's the best example of a true-to-life Bizarro World.

I predict that sometime in the near future, the only problem in the sportscard business will be the so-called "purists" with their disparaging and damaging rhetoric about alterations being bad or unethical thus being a major threat to the industry, third-party grading and investors.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

Nothing shocks me anymore when it comes to altered cards. It's the best example of a true-to-life Bizarro World.

I predict that sometime in the near future, the only problem in the sportscard business will be the so-called "purists" with their disparaging and damaging rhetoric about alterations being bad or unethical thus being a major threat to the industry, third-party grading and investors.

To me whomever made that last statement he or she is exactly whom I don't want in this hobby.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I've been doing this for decades and I've had a pretty good education but particularly with cards in a slab where I can't examine the edges there is NFW I can be absolutely sure that 100 percent of my cards are completely original. Sorry but I am skeptical of anyone who claims they can, and no disrespect intended.

[benjulmag]

So if it becomes generally accepted that the (great) majority of vintage cards have been altered, why in time wouldn't the price of condition rarity specimens plummet? Is someone really going to be willing to pay multiples more for a slight bump up in grade simply because the card doctor who worked on the higher grade card was better than the card doctor who worked on the lower grade example?

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

SMH that this thread got essentially no traction. I guess we're so numb at this point...

There's really no new news here, considering the source of this quote. I've commented on this fiasco repeatedly since the "scandal" broke. Sadly, it seems to make no difference.

I completely agree with the "lack of traction" aspect, but am afraid that the silence exhibited by most people on this forum is the result of them not wanting to admit to owning/selling altered cards.

Dealers, Flippers and grade-bumpers all adore PSA and will continue to defend them (or simply say nothing), despite the mountain of evidence that continues to accumulate. Most of these are obvious alteration jobs that any novice would have caught. There are now thousands of examples in numbered slabs, including those that PSA has reviewed and confirmed the grade... No conflict of interest there

I just pray that someday we discover the truth... whether it is PSA's ineptitude or that they are compliant in this disgrace with their favored submitters. Hopefully the FBI is still building its case, and karma will ultimately prevail. Then we will really have something to talk about.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

So if it becomes generally accepted that the (great) majority of vintage cards have been altered, why in time wouldn't the price of condition rarity specimens plummet? Is someone in time really going to be willing to pay multiples more for a slight bump up in grade simply because the card doctor who worked on higher graded card better than the card doctor who worked on the lower grade example?

Correct.... It pretty much renders grading as meaningless.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

There's really no new news here, considering the source of this quote. I've commented on this fiasco repeatedly since the "scandal" broke. Sadly, it seems to make no difference.

I completely agree with the "lack of traction" aspect, but am afraid that the silence exhibited by most people on this forum is the result of them not wanting to admit to owning/selling altered cards.

Dealers, Flippers and grade-bumpers all adore PSA and will continue to defend them (or simply say nothing), despite the mountain of evidence that continues to accumulate. Most of these are obvious alteration jobs that any novice would have caught. There are now thousands of examples in numbered slabs, including those that PSA has reviewed and confirmed the grade... No conflict of interest there

I just pray that someday we discover the truth... whether it is PSA's ineptitude or that they are compliant in this disgrace with their favored submitters. Hopefully the FBI is still building its case, and karma will ultimately prevail. Then we will really have something to talk about.

My best guess at this point is that PSA and BGS over time made a deal with the devil, that is they tried to find a space that was manageable between still performing some screening function for hatchet jobs on the one hand and on the other hand not alienating completely the card doctors who were their biggest customers and who, after all, provided many of the cards most visible in the marketplace that pumped up the brands and the hobby. If it weren't for BODA I think that middle ground would have been much less visible to the average collector. SGC, different analysis, I'll keep that one to myself.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I've been doing this for decades and I've had a pretty good education but particularly with cards in a slab where I can't examine the edges there is NFW I can be absolutely sure that 100 percent of my cards are completely original. Sorry but I am skeptical of anyone who claims they can, and no disrespect intended.

It's not even specific to cards, I just wouldn't trust anyone who claims to be "100% certain" of anything.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

It's not even specific to cards, I just wouldn't trust anyone who claims to be "100% certain" of anything.

Are you 100% certain you wouldn't trust them?

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

It's not even specific to cards, I just wouldn't trust anyone who claims to be "100% certain" of anything.

I'm 100% certain Britney Spears won't show up at my house tonight for dinner.

[Peter_Spaeth]

When I started this thread I was fairly certain it would not end up mentioning Brittney Spears, but you never know, do you?

[G1911]

I collect the card, and not the holder (I collect low grade cards and snap the slabs 100% of the time, unless the card is remaining in my trade bait box), but I think we all have altered cards. It's hard to have a lot of cards and not end up with a significant number of altered cards, altering has been common for decades. I have many I know are trimmed, recolored etc., but I'm positive I have many more I don't realize are altered. However, I personally don't really care, and remain confident I am correctly identifying that they are original authentic cards, if not able to detect all microtrimming or other alterations (I really don't check carefully for it, because I don't care much). My cards have round corners, creases, bites, holes, missing pieces, tape stains, trimming, recoloring, probably rebuilt corners and a whole lot more. None of that ruins them for me, my card isn't mint, if some one micro-trimmed an edge, that's just another type of damage.

If/when it gets to the point where I am no longer positive I am correctly identifying an authentic card, that's where I have a problem.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by G1911

I collect the card, and not the holder (I collect low grade cards and snap the slabs 100% of the time, unless the card is remaining in my trade bait box), but I think we all have altered cards. It's hard to have a lot of cards and not end up with a significant number of altered cards, altering has been common for decades. I have many I know are trimmed, recolored etc., but I'm positive I have many more I don't realize are altered. However, I personally don't really care, and remain confident I am correctly identifying that they are original authentic cards, if not able to detect all microtrimming or other alterations (I really don't check carefully for it, because I don't care much). My cards have round corners, creases, bites, holes, missing pieces, tape stains, trimming, recoloring, probably rebuilt corners and a whole lot more. None of that ruins them for me, my card isn't mint, if some one micro-trimmed an edge, that's just another type of damage.

If/when it gets to the point where I am no longer positive I am correctly identifying an authentic card, that's where I have a problem.

I don’t look at micro trimming as you say just another type of damage. I look at it as a Alteration.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

I don’t look at micro trimming as you say just another type of damage. I look at it as a Alteration.

I agree it's an alteration. It's also a kind of damage.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

I agree it's an alteration. It's also a kind of damage.

I suppose, but John and I are of a generation of collectors to whom alteration is horrifying so it's of a different quality.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I suppose, but John and I are of a generation of collectors to whom alteration is horrifying so it's of a different quality.

I didn't know younger generations were more okay with it. I referred to it as both alteration and damage in #44, I'm surprised if that's a controversial claim.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

I didn't know younger generations were more okay with it. I referred to it as both alteration and damage in #44, I'm surprised if that's a controversial claim.

"just another type of damage"
implying it's no different in kind from a crease etc.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

"just another type of damage"
implying it's no different in kind from a crease etc.

I would refer too the first few sentences that specifically refer to it as altering.

Altering IS just another type of damage, alterations are a type of damage. They are a group of damage done to increase a cards sell value or appearance. That is a group, a type of damage. Another type, another group, of damage, made its own type because of the fact it is altering, not normal wear and tear but done for a specific purpose intentionally. It does not change my enjoyment of a card, so while it’s own type, it’s just another type..

I don’t know why this wants to be made a thing, but alright.