Juan Soto -- looking like a bust for the Mets

[John1941]

Originally Posted by bk400

I also think that this "generational" label is being batted around too casually. Soto has had a great career so far, but generational?

If getting on base is a talent, Soto is a generational talent. No one else in this generation (and very few in history) can beat him in taking walks and getting on base (with the possible exception of Judge, but Judge is a very different kind of hitter.)

[Peter_Spaeth]

2 hits, 2 RBI. He's back!!!!

[bk400]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

2 hits, 2 RBI. He's back!!!!

That's right!! He's back! And anyone who thought Juan Soto was a bum, is a bum.

[Peter_Spaeth]

And Acuna is finally playing again.

[bk400]

You know what I love about Lindor? He's miked up during the game, he talks up his embattled teammate Soto, and he turns an awesome double play.

And Soto? The guy is slumping, but he managed to help win the game with his hustle and defense!

Mets rock. Watch out LA. We're coming for you.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by bk400

You know what I love about Lindor? He's miked up during the game, he talks up his embattled teammate Soto, and he turns an awesome double play.

And Soto? The guy is slumping, but he managed to help win the game with his hustle and defense!

Mets rock. Watch out LA. We're coming for you.

So he's not a bust any more until his next bad game? Got it.

[bk400]

Originally Posted by jayshum

So he's not a bust any more until his next bad game? Got it.

That's right! I am happy to expose my intellectual inconsistencies where they lie.

[bk400]

And Lindor and Soto come through again (even though Soto didn't have any hits again)! Lindor is the best. Granted, it's the White Sox, but a W is a W.

[Peter_Spaeth]

All three runs in the game on sac flies. Old style baseball.

[WhatsNext]

Such a loser post. He and the Mets are fine.

Statcast has Soto's expected slash line so far at .300/.421/.582 (xOPS of 1.003), compared to his actual line of .233/.363.409. He's just gotten (very) unlucky. Nothing to worry about.

[bk400]

Originally Posted by WhatsNext

Such a loser post. He and the Mets are fine.

Statcast has Soto's expected slash line so far at .300/.421/.582 (xOPS of 1.003), compared to his actual line of .233/.363.409. He's just gotten (very) unlucky. Nothing to worry about.

Yes, John1941 made the Statcast point earlier in the thread, which is a good one. This said, if we went by Statcast predictions instead of actual results, Aaron Judge catches that ball in the 5th inning of last year's World Series and Freddie Freeman doesn't hit the grand slam in Game 1. The Knicks don't choke Game 1 last week, and the Pacers don't give away Game 3. The 2007 Patriots beat the Giants and poor Arthur Blank isn't a meme.

And finally, I suppose that if the stakes in one's life are such that making lighthearted, fan-talk posts constitutes loser behavior, then yes, I guess I'm a loser.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by Kevlo17

Less then 2 months into a contract seems a bit early to be labeling it a bust....

The Mets are already over a third of the way into the season. That's starting to be significant.

Originally Posted by Kevlo17

...when the guy carries a 1.6 bWAR and a 133 ops+. Those numbers aren't up to Soto's career standards, but they are far from shabby.

This though is the same guy who just signed a record setting contract. His numbers aren't exactly record setting. In fact I'd label his current .224 batting average as very disappointing. Granted I do need to give him credit for being on pace to set a personal high for stolen bases.

Originally Posted by WhatsNext

Such a loser post. He and the Mets are fine.

You should post more often. We're not often treated to such rare insight.

Originally Posted by WhatsNext

He's just gotten (very) unlucky. Nothing to worry about.

Methinks he needs to start hitting the ball where it's pitched to improve his "luck".

[bk400]

The good news for Soto is he's got the venerable Rockies pitching staff coming up. When the White Sox are too good, you can count on the Rockies.

[Balticfox]

It's not just Juan Soto though. The Mets are now trying to be like the Yankees and win with their payroll instead of playing good fundamental baseball.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOwxfFjVDYE

The Mets should go back to being the anti-Yankees and offer New York baseball fans an alternative instead of an echo.

[Peter_Spaeth]

He went 2-4 last night. Maybe he's coming out of it. Besides, what player in history (other than maybe Hank Aaron) has not gone through a slump? It's baseball.

A HR and a walk today. Oh ye of no faith.

[bk400]

Juan Soto! Looking strong to very strong in June. Good thing we Mets fans never lost faith!

On a potentially related note, I am shocked that the Dodgers are in first place in their division when they basically have one pitcher -- Yamamoto. Granted, he's awesome, but still.

I like the Mets' chances in the post season if Yamamoto and Playoff Kershaw are the best arms. We've got to also hope that Ohtani is rusty and doesn't pull out any of that World Baseball Classic circa 2023 stuff.

[Snapolit1]

Shockingly, assessments of a 15 year contract after 3 weeks of play proved to be a tad premature.

Originally Posted by bk400

Juan Soto! Looking strong to very strong in June. Good thing we Mets fans never lost faith!

On a potentially related note, I am shocked that the Dodgers are in first place in their division when they basically have one pitcher -- Yamamoto. Granted, he's awesome, but still.

I like the Mets' chances in the post season if Yamamoto and Playoff Kershaw are the best arms. We've got to also hope that Ohtani is rusty and doesn't pull out any of that World Baseball Classic circa 2023 stuff.

[bk400]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Shockingly, assessments of a 15 year contract after 3 weeks of play proved to be a tad premature.

Yep for sure. But if you're looking for patience, play in the Central Division.

[Knightlax5]

Originally Posted by bk400

Yep for sure. But if you're looking for patience, play in the Central Division.

Fellow life long Mets fan here, you need to relax man and enjoy the season. This team is doing great, one win away from having the best record in baseball and you're acting like the sky is falling. We had the Coupons as an owner who got roped into a ponzi scheme and now we have the richest owner and fan in sports who bought arguably the greatest free agent in baseball history. The back of his baseball card says you can pencil him in for .280 and 30 HR's a year.

You endured seasons of Jason Bay, Rey Ordonez, and Mo Vaughan. Enjoy the time when they're actually good. Every team wins 50 games, every team loses 50 games. Enjoy the ride and know they'll be in contention come October. But most importantly, LFGM!

[bk400]

Originally Posted by Knightlax5

Fellow life long Mets fan here, you need to relax man and enjoy the season. This team is doing great, one win away from having the best record in baseball and you're acting like the sky is falling. We had the Coupons as an owner who got roped into a ponzi scheme and now we have the richest owner and fan in sports who bought arguably the greatest free agent in baseball history. The back of his baseball card says you can pencil him in for .280 and 30 HR's a year.

You endured seasons of Jason Bay, Rey Ordonez, and Mo Vaughan. Enjoy the time when they're actually good. Every team wins 50 games, every team loses 50 games. Enjoy the ride and know they'll be in contention come October. But most importantly, LFGM!

Sage advice. I guess it hurts more when the Mets seem to have a team that can finally win it all again.

[Snapolit1]

Hey, Rey Ordonez wasn't bad.

Hardly a low point of my 50 year Mets fandom. Wouldn't make the top 150.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TllQxxbdPWM

Originally Posted by Knightlax5

Fellow life long Mets fan here, you need to relax man and enjoy the season. This team is doing great, one win away from having the best record in baseball and you're acting like the sky is falling. We had the Coupons as an owner who got roped into a ponzi scheme and now we have the richest owner and fan in sports who bought arguably the greatest free agent in baseball history. The back of his baseball card says you can pencil him in for .280 and 30 HR's a year.

You endured seasons of Jason Bay, Rey Ordonez, and Mo Vaughan. Enjoy the time when they're actually good. Every team wins 50 games, every team loses 50 games. Enjoy the ride and know they'll be in contention come October. But most importantly, LFGM!

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Shockingly, assessments of a 15 year contract after 3 weeks of play proved to be a tad premature.

Originally Posted by Knightlax5

...now we have the richest owner and fan in sports who bought arguably the greatest free agent in baseball history. The back of his baseball card says you can pencil him in for .280 and 30 HR's a year.

You're both missing the point. Yes, Juan Soto is hitting .253 with 13 home runs 43% of the way into the season. That's "alright". What it's NOT though is worth $765 million over fifteen years plus silly perks!

The Mets should trade Soto to the Yankees or whoever and get the albatross of a contract off their backs. And I'm saying this because as a lifelong Yankee hater I'm a Mets fan!

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

You're both missing the point. Yes, Juan Soto is hitting .253 with 13 home runs 43% of the way into the season. That's "alright". What it's NOT though is worth $765 million over fifteen years plus silly perks!

The Mets should trade Soto to the Yankees or whoever and get the albatross of a contract off their backs. And I'm saying this because as a lifelong Yankee hater I'm a Mets fan!

LOL, if the Yankees or anybody else wanted that contract, they would have given him that contract to begin with. Forget now giving assets to inherit that contract. He's on the Mets, until he can no longer play baseball, or money becomes meaningless to the Oligarchs who will own baseball teams over the next 15 years.

Also, you're cherry picking stats. He's starting to close in on his usual .400+ OBP and is on pace for a 6+ WAR season...which is exactly what the Mets paid for.

I'm not going to get into the logistics of giving out a 15 year / 3/4+ Billion dollar contract...but I'm sure the guy who owns the team (and is worth about 20 times more then Hal Steinbrenner), and likely makes more then Soto's full contract in a single year...doesn't really need you to count nickels and cents for him.

[SyrNy1960]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

You're both missing the point. Yes, Juan Soto is hitting .253 with 13 home runs 43% of the way into the season. That's "alright". What it's NOT though is worth $765 million over fifteen years plus silly perks!

The Mets should trade Soto to the Yankees or whoever and get the albatross of a contract off their backs. And I'm saying this because as a lifelong Yankee hater I'm a Mets fan!

And as a Yankee fan, I’m glad to see you lifelong Yankee haters got stuck with Soto and his ridiculous 15-year, $765 million contract.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Also, you're cherry picking stats. He's starting to close in on his usual .400+ OBP and is on pace for a 6+ WAR season...which is exactly what the Mets paid for.

Cherry picking? No. I didn't bother to go more deeply than his batting average and home run tital. And the newfangled WAR thingie I'm disinclined to check at all.

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

I'm not going to get into the logistics of giving out a 15 year / 3/4+ Billion dollar contract...but I'm sure the guy who owns the team (and is worth about 20 times more then Hal Steinbrenner), and likely makes more then Soto's full contract in a single year...doesn't really need you to count nickels and cents for him.

No, he doesn't need me to count for him. In my experience rich men are really good at counting for themselves. That's typically a necessary condition to getting rich.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

Cherry picking? No. I didn't bother to go more deeply than his batting average and home run tital. And the newfangled WAR thingie I'm disinclined to check at all.

I'm assuming you consider stats like "Runs" and "On-Base percentage" new-fangled as well? Perhaps if you dug a little deeper than his batting average and home runs, you'd find that Soto has been on base the 4th most of any player in the MLB so far this year, which is translating to a lot of runs, which tend to help teams win games.

But as others have pointed out, its absurd to judge a 15 year contract well before the All-Star break of his 1st year in that contract.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

I'm assuming you consider stats like "Runs" and "On-Base percentage" new-fangled as well?

But as others have pointed out, its absurd to judge a 15 year contract well before the All-Star break of his 1st year in that contract.

A record setting contract means I'd expect some record setting numbers (the ones I studied as a kid on the backs of Baseball cards anyway).

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by SyrNy1960

And as a Yankee fan, I’m glad to see you lifelong Yankee haters got stuck with Soto and his ridiculous 15-year, $765 million contract.

Yeah it’s been tough. Told one of my kids he can’t go back to college this year and we’re been eating ramen noodles for the last few months. Also haven paid the cable bill in 8 months. And I’ve postponed a lot of dental work I desperately need. I’m furious over what Cohen has hoisted upon me, but what can you do.

[Balticfox]

I typically don't blame anyone but myself for my own overspending.

[Snapolit1]

This is what slays Yankees fans 24/7/365 about the Mets signing Soto . . . . . why they chant "Juan Soto sucks" in games where they aren't even playing the Mets.

THE SIZE OF HIS CONTRACT IS ABSOLUTELY MEANINGLESS

METS LUXURY TAX "HIT" IN 2025: $79M

In 2024, Forbes Magazine estimated Cohen's fortune at $21.5 billion, ranking him the 30th richest person in the United States.

https://fortune.com/2016/10/22/steve...naire-point72/

https://www.si.com/mlb/2019/12/05/st...-man-sculpture

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

This is what slays Yankees fans 24/7/365 about the Mets signing Soto . . . . . why they chant "Juan Soto sucks" in games where they aren't even playing the Mets.

Were they deep thinkers they'd add the codicil "And so do we!"

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

THE SIZE OF HIS CONTRACT IS ABSOLUTELY MEANINGLESS

In 2024, Forbes Magazine estimated Cohen's fortune at $21.5 billion, ranking him the 30th richest person in the United States.

Mets fans might help me out here by updating this thread with ticket prices for these years:

2020 (pre Cohen):
2024 (pre-Soto):
2025:
2026:
2027:
2028:
.
.
.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

Were they deep thinkers they'd add the codicil "And so do we!"



Mets fans might help me out here by updating this thread with ticket prices for these years:

2020 (pre Cohen):
2024 (pre-Soto):
2025:
2026:
2027:
2028:
.
.
.

This post is nonsensical. The owner of the team, Steve Cohen owns the Mets as a hobby, not as a profit-making business. So ticket prices don't mean a whole lot to him. He is trying to maximize his fun. What about this don't you understand?

Also, I don't know that you've noticed, but the Mets, despite being swept recently still have the best record in in the National League. Part of this success has to do with Soto getting on base more than anyone else in the National League not named Ohtani.

Last, do you end all of your posts with "" because you think your posts are clever or funny?

[bk400]

The Mets can't help but keep it close with the Phillies and, we shall see, the Braves.

I'm still not a fan of Soto. Dude. Stop staring down people. Just, I dunno, act like a champion.

For all this time, i'm worried about the Mets being able to man up against the Dodgers. But right now the Phillies are the better team.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by bk400

The Mets can't help but keep it close with the Phillies and, we shall see, the Braves.

I'm still not a fan of Soto. Dude. Stop staring down people. Just, I dunno, act like a champion.

For all this time, i'm worried about the Mets being able to man up against the Dodgers. But right now the Phillies are the better team.

A lot will depend on what happens at the trade deadline. Phillies need bullpen help if they're really going to have a chance at winning the division and making a deep playoff run. They bounced back from going 1-9 on the strength of their starting pitchers, but tgeir offense is too inconsistent to carry the team if the bullpen isn't dependable.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

This post is nonsensical. The owner of the team, Steve Cohen owns the Mets as a hobby, not as a profit-making business. So ticket prices don't mean a whole lot to him.

Your objection is nonsensical. While ticket prices don't mean a whole lot to Steve Cohen, the point is that they mean a whole lot to the average fan. And so do concession prices. For whatever reason you neglected to address this point in your response.

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

He is trying to maximize his fun. What about this don't you understand?

Who says I don't? What you don't seem to understand is that I'm on the side of the average fan and not Steve Cohen's.

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

Also, I don't know that you've noticed, but the Mets, despite being swept recently still have the best record in in the National League. Part of this success has to do with Soto getting on base more than anyone else in the National League not named Ohtani.

Which of the two earns more though? I believe it's Soto.

And how does Soto's pay compare to the average pay for the hitters/fielders on the Mets' team? Isn't it something like 10X higher? But is Soto 10x better?

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

Last, do you end all of your posts with ""....

No, not even in this thread.

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

...because you think your posts are clever or funny?

Only the few that may be clever or funny.



And before leaping to such unfounded conclusions you might check my other posts rather than getting so hot and bothered about me implying that Juan Soto is way overpaid.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

Your objection is nonsensical. While ticket prices don't mean a whole lot to Steve Cohen, the point is that they mean a whole lot to the average fan. And so do concession prices. For whatever reason you neglected to address this point in your response.



Who says I don't? What you don't seem to understand is that I'm on the side of the average fan and not Steve Cohen's.



Which of the two earns more though? I believe it's Soto.

And how does Soto's pay compare to the average pay for the hitters/fielders on the Mets' team? Isn't it something like 10X higher? But is Soto 10x better?



No, not even in this thread.



Only the few that may be clever or funny.



And before leaping to such unfounded conclusions you might check my other posts rather than getting so hot and bothered about me implying that Juan Soto is way overpaid.

Wow, that was a lot of effort on your part.

So what exactly is the point you are trying to make (in less than 100 words)?

Are you trying to say that Steve Cohen is jacking up the cost of concessions and tickets in order to make up for the money he is paying Juan Soto?

And do you, or do you not understand why Juan Soto's contract was so large?

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

Wow, that was a lot of effort on your part.

Indeed it was. Be nice if you did likewise on occasion.

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

So what exactly is the point you are trying to make (in less than 100 words)?

That Juan Soto is egregiously overpaid given what he adds to the Mets team. (14 words)

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

Are you trying to say that Steve Cohen is jacking up the cost of concessions and tickets in order to make up for the money he is paying Juan Soto?

Yes, that's what I suspect. And once again it would be nice if you addressed that point instead of engaging in personal attacks.

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

And do you, or do you not understand why Juan Soto's contract was so large?

I do NOT understand why Juan Soto was awarded such a large contract. In Steve Cohen's position I would not have done so.

But I've already very clearly made these points in this thread. Why are you asking me to repeat myself? What the hell is it that you still fail to understand?

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

Indeed it was. Be nice if you did likewise on occasion.



That Juan Soto is egregiously overpaid given what he adds to the Mets team. (14 words)



Yes, that's what I suspect. And once again it would be nice if you addressed that point instead of engaging in personal attacks.



I do NOT understand why Juan Soto was awarded such a large contract. In Steve Cohen's position I would not have done so.

But I've already very clearly made these points in this thread. Why are you asking me to repeat myself? What the hell is it that you still fail to understand?

I don't think it is any secret why Juan Soto set a record contract.

These are a few reasons: He is only 26 years old, but still has an incredible body of work that suggests there are many years of top-tier performance ahead of him. Few have ever accomplished as much as he has at such an early age. A few examples of his accomplishments: a) 26 multi-homer games, which is tied with Jimmie Foxx for the most ever before turning 27 (he turns 27 on October 25th) b) He is one of 17 players to record 1,000 hits and 200 homers before his 27th birthday. He’s the only player in that age bracket to also reach 800 walks c) He was the youngest player in National League history to win a batting title (2020 at age 21) d) His career On Base Percentage of .419 puts him at #22 ever, ahead of players like Stan Musial, Wade Boggs, or Aaron Judge. e) I know you don't care about new-fangled stats like WAR or OPS+ but his numbers are off the charts. His career OPS+ of 159 is ahead of Hank Aaron, Shohei Ohtani and Joe DiMaggio, and means he has hit 59% better than his peers. f) his WAR is already 39.7, which puts him at #21 of all active players. The only other person that is close to that and is in their 20s is Ronald Acuna Jr. at 27.6 WAR and age 27. While you don't care about WAR, I can assure that MVP voters, and player evaluators do.


But there are also many intangibles that make Soto valuable to a franchise. He is extremely popular among fans. As of March 31st, Soto ranks 3rd in popularity for jersey sales behind Ohtani, Freeman, and ahead of Betts and Judge.

Soto is a big part of the reason that the Mets are having huge ticket sales. In the 9 days after Soto signed with the Mets, the club saw "across-the-board boosts in both single-game and season-ticket sales. Among the key results:

A club record for the opening day of single-game ticket sales on Dec. 9. The revenue total, though not disclosed, surpassed the comparable day last year within the first 45 minutes of availability and ultimately tripled the 2023 figure.
A doubling in single-game ticket sales for the 2025 regular season for the Dec. 9–15 period compared to the opening week of single-game sales for 2024.
A doubling in 2025 spring training ticket sales for the Dec. 9–15 period compared to the prior week.
A sellout of Delta Sky360° Club at Citi Field, with the club moving in recent days to create a waiting list."

As of June 13, the Mets have the biggest home attendance increase of any team in MLB.

When Othani and Judge signed their mega-deals, they were older than Soto is. Ohtani is currently 30 (and signed his megadeal at 29) and I believe Judge was 30 when he signed his deal.

As for your musings (without any evidence) that Steve Cohen has jacked up the cost of concessions or ticket costs since signing Soto, I would just say that ticket sales are mostly a function of supply and demand, so I'm sure ticket prices have gone up in the secondary market. I have not found any evidence that they have gone up in price in the primary market, but they may have, at least to cover inflation.

But as mentioned many times before in this thread, the cost of concessions and ticket sales is not a huge concern to an owner that is worth 21.3 Billion

Here is a link to Mets ticket prices from 2006 - 2024. Cohen bought the Mets in 2020, so he doesn't have a track record of raising prices. Surprisingly, this article says the Mets median ticket price is below average, and even lower than the Rockies.